am i out of line here?
03-30-2011, 06:55 AM
#61
Three Wheelin'
I have used those front round lift points for jackstands (not for lifting) many time before and never had a problem with any deformation. In preference I usually use the caster blocks (again not for lifting though) in the front and the rear tt carrier, but when you are working on the suspension, there really is no other alternative. You end up doing more damage using the frame rails in my experience as the metal there isn't thick enough to support the car unless you can get a large contact area (which jack stands do not provide).
In the OP's case, once the car is lifted using the "wrong" points, any perceived damage was likely to have already been done, so why bother pointing out the issue after the fact?
I would have walked as well though after hearing their verbal abuse. It says something about their culture which would probably be evident in their workmanship as well.
Eric
In the OP's case, once the car is lifted using the "wrong" points, any perceived damage was likely to have already been done, so why bother pointing out the issue after the fact?
I would have walked as well though after hearing their verbal abuse. It says something about their culture which would probably be evident in their workmanship as well.
Eric
Last edited by Eric_Oz_S2; 03-30-2011 at 10:53 AM.
03-30-2011, 10:16 AM
#63
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Small
Business Sponsor
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Small
Business Sponsor
Somehow I discovered this thread….so I guess I could offer some help?
First, understand that the internet is not always right. Yes, I know that is a startling fact that may not have occurred to everybody. So lets see if I can shine a little light on how to raise a 944/968.
There is only one point (per side) that can withstand a point load from a typical floor jack – that is the ‘official’ jacking point at the center of the rocker panel. If you use the body lifting points they will eventually collapse, If you use the frame rail it will eventually collapse, if you use the caster block you may do some damage – the block is held to the frame via sheet metal.
Remember – we are talking about a point load floor jack. A car lift is a different device – as long as it is set up right you are using four locations to lift the car. The point load is several time less than if you are jacking the car with a single floor jack. You can use the body lifting point if the load is distributed over all for points. It’s not my favorite lifting point but if you know what you are doing you will not do any damage. If you lift a 944/968 by the frame rails you better use a load distributing plate (a 2x6 that is 1’ long works well), if you don’t the frame rail can get dented or at least scratched up.
My favorite lifting points are the front frame rail with a load distribution plate and the rear torsion bar carrier mount (cast aluminum part on the end of the torsions tube carrier).
BTW – if you know what you are doing you can lift the car using the sheet metal floor pan. If you use a large enough load distribution plate then it can be done without any risk of damage.
So whats my point? Well, if you know what you are doing you can lift up a 944/968 many ways without doing any damage. If you rely on what you read on the internet you can inflict damage on a 944/968 even if you use the lifting points that the internet says are ‘safe’. Basically it comes down to common sense and understanding what you are doing instead of sheepishly following what you have heard somewhere.
And some customers need to be right…out the door.
The only thing more pretentious than a twit with real aviator glasses (that is not a pilot) is a uber twit with cheapo knock off aviator glasses.
For those of you that are unfamiliar with real aviator glasses there are actual requirements – they need to be large enough to filter out peripheral glare, they have to have frames that don’t interfere with headsets and they cannot be polarized (interferes with reading instruments). Most Aviator ‘style’ glasses fail….they are bought by twits that just want the ‘look’….
First, understand that the internet is not always right. Yes, I know that is a startling fact that may not have occurred to everybody. So lets see if I can shine a little light on how to raise a 944/968.
There is only one point (per side) that can withstand a point load from a typical floor jack – that is the ‘official’ jacking point at the center of the rocker panel. If you use the body lifting points they will eventually collapse, If you use the frame rail it will eventually collapse, if you use the caster block you may do some damage – the block is held to the frame via sheet metal.
Remember – we are talking about a point load floor jack. A car lift is a different device – as long as it is set up right you are using four locations to lift the car. The point load is several time less than if you are jacking the car with a single floor jack. You can use the body lifting point if the load is distributed over all for points. It’s not my favorite lifting point but if you know what you are doing you will not do any damage. If you lift a 944/968 by the frame rails you better use a load distributing plate (a 2x6 that is 1’ long works well), if you don’t the frame rail can get dented or at least scratched up.
My favorite lifting points are the front frame rail with a load distribution plate and the rear torsion bar carrier mount (cast aluminum part on the end of the torsions tube carrier).
BTW – if you know what you are doing you can lift the car using the sheet metal floor pan. If you use a large enough load distribution plate then it can be done without any risk of damage.
So whats my point? Well, if you know what you are doing you can lift up a 944/968 many ways without doing any damage. If you rely on what you read on the internet you can inflict damage on a 944/968 even if you use the lifting points that the internet says are ‘safe’. Basically it comes down to common sense and understanding what you are doing instead of sheepishly following what you have heard somewhere.
And some customers need to be right…out the door.
Originally Posted by JohnKoaWood
I bet you even have driving gloves... did you have them on (with your aviator glasses of course) while speking to the mechanic about how he was to lift and proceed to work on your car?
If not, salted elitist fail for you sir..
i think you know the answer to this rhetorical question... of course i did! i never pay more than 7 dollars for a pair though. otherwise you're getting hosed.
and you have to wear them inside while speaking to the help. that way if your eyes meet, no one will notice and you won't have to knock them back down a notch.
I bet you even have driving gloves... did you have them on (with your aviator glasses of course) while speking to the mechanic about how he was to lift and proceed to work on your car?
If not, salted elitist fail for you sir..
i think you know the answer to this rhetorical question... of course i did! i never pay more than 7 dollars for a pair though. otherwise you're getting hosed.
and you have to wear them inside while speaking to the help. that way if your eyes meet, no one will notice and you won't have to knock them back down a notch.
For those of you that are unfamiliar with real aviator glasses there are actual requirements – they need to be large enough to filter out peripheral glare, they have to have frames that don’t interfere with headsets and they cannot be polarized (interferes with reading instruments). Most Aviator ‘style’ glasses fail….they are bought by twits that just want the ‘look’….
03-30-2011, 11:04 AM
#64
Race Director
Being a retire Tech Rep I am going to give you the view point from a different angle. You said you took your car to a German speciality shop. They lift cars all day everyday and make a living from it. After all the wheels aren't attached to the "JACK" lift points, are they? They probably figure 99% of the car owners don't have a clue about how to work on a car or else THEY wouldn't be the ones performing the work. Can you begin to imagine just how insulting YOU were by telling them how to do their job, they are German car specialist! Their cussing loud enough for the customers in the lobby reading books was unsatisfactory too be sure. Hope no kids were there to hear this.
The professional thing for them to have done after you told them how to lift your car would have been to put it on the ground in the parking lot and told you to have a nice day.
Just a different view point.
The professional thing for them to have done after you told them how to lift your car would have been to put it on the ground in the parking lot and told you to have a nice day.
Just a different view point.
Perhaps you should have raised your concern about the jack points of your car prior to handing over the keyes to them. Let's face it -- today's mechanic, even a "German specialist" mechanic doesn't see too many 944's, unless it is a shop that specializes in older Porsches. Heck - even a Porsche dealer's mechanic wouldn't know what to do with a 944 - they would probably have trouble finding the motor!
-Z-man.
03-30-2011, 11:17 AM
#65
Race Car
Excellent post Chris. As a career Porsche/Benz tech for over 23 years, there is some "common" since. It is a tech's job to not damage the car. Getting all variety of P-cars on a lift takes a little due diligence; a 951 is the most sensitive. it help to have a "good" lift, but even the best takes a bit of work. Having the car centered between the posts, and then getting on the ground...yes, bending over on your knees and looking. Then choosing your favorite wooden blocks for each application (that you have amassed from years of experience) should be deliberately placed on solid frame points/suspension mounts.
Porsche factory training taught me that a large part of the job (Porsche tech) is showmanship. You will have to display your training. Being deliberate in your actions, clean and organized, courteous and engaging with the client is what' required. Another thing very important; technician priority. Meaning that the customer is second in interest after the car. Yes the car is the primary focus and the "Hippocratic" oath is required. It's very easy for a tech to allow himself to become jaded by a d-bag customer and let that reflect in his attitude toward the car. Sometimes you have to put blinders on and fix the car.
Porsche factory training taught me that a large part of the job (Porsche tech) is showmanship. You will have to display your training. Being deliberate in your actions, clean and organized, courteous and engaging with the client is what' required. Another thing very important; technician priority. Meaning that the customer is second in interest after the car. Yes the car is the primary focus and the "Hippocratic" oath is required. It's very easy for a tech to allow himself to become jaded by a d-bag customer and let that reflect in his attitude toward the car. Sometimes you have to put blinders on and fix the car.
03-30-2011, 12:24 PM
#66
Nordschleife Master
Thread Starter
i think everyone so far has been correct. Being the narcissist that i am though, none of that applies to my situation. 
maybe people aren't reading my description of the event? from 3 bays away in the waiting room, i can see that my side skirts are being bent by the lift. they weren't using the factory style pegs, they were using wide plates (perfect to fit the frame rail and distribute the weight more evenly). i didn't tell them how to lift the car before hand because i thought that would make me sound like i was telling them they didn't know how to do their jobs. it was only after witnessing potential damage did i politely ask them to use a different lift point. i then went back to the waiting room. only after enduring a barrage of cursing and bad mouthing did i determine that these guys don't give a **** about my car and didn't care about treating me or the car properly. so i left. again, as politely as possible.
maybe people aren't reading my description of the event? from 3 bays away in the waiting room, i can see that my side skirts are being bent by the lift. they weren't using the factory style pegs, they were using wide plates (perfect to fit the frame rail and distribute the weight more evenly). i didn't tell them how to lift the car before hand because i thought that would make me sound like i was telling them they didn't know how to do their jobs. it was only after witnessing potential damage did i politely ask them to use a different lift point. i then went back to the waiting room. only after enduring a barrage of cursing and bad mouthing did i determine that these guys don't give a **** about my car and didn't care about treating me or the car properly. so i left. again, as politely as possible.
03-30-2011, 12:26 PM
#67
Nordschleife Master
Thread Starter
The only thing more pretentious than a twit with real aviator glasses (that is not a pilot) is a uber twit with cheapo knock off aviator glasses.
For those of you that are unfamiliar with real aviator glasses there are actual requirements – they need to be large enough to filter out peripheral glare, they have to have frames that don’t interfere with headsets and they cannot be polarized (interferes with reading instruments). Most Aviator ‘style’ glasses fail….they are bought by twits that just want the ‘look’….
For those of you that are unfamiliar with real aviator glasses there are actual requirements – they need to be large enough to filter out peripheral glare, they have to have frames that don’t interfere with headsets and they cannot be polarized (interferes with reading instruments). Most Aviator ‘style’ glasses fail….they are bought by twits that just want the ‘look’….
i was joking about acting elitist... i'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say you just didn't pick up on my humor.
03-30-2011, 12:27 PM
#68
Nordschleife Master
Thread Starter
thanks for the comments everyone, this is the kind of discussion i was looking for. different opinions on the same situation. i just feel like i have to keep describing the situation because people are chiming in without reading...
03-30-2011, 01:24 PM
#69
Nordschleife Master
The only thing more pretentious than a twit with real aviator glasses (that is not a pilot) is a uber twit with cheapo knock off aviator glasses.
For those of you that are unfamiliar with real aviator glasses there are actual requirements – they need to be large enough to filter out peripheral glare, they have to have frames that don’t interfere with headsets and they cannot be polarized (interferes with reading instruments). Most Aviator ‘style’ glasses fail….they are bought by twits that just want the ‘look’….
For those of you that are unfamiliar with real aviator glasses there are actual requirements – they need to be large enough to filter out peripheral glare, they have to have frames that don’t interfere with headsets and they cannot be polarized (interferes with reading instruments). Most Aviator ‘style’ glasses fail….they are bought by twits that just want the ‘look’….
03-30-2011, 03:25 PM
#70
Nordschleife Master
Thread Starter
Excellent post Chris. As a career Porsche/Benz tech for over 23 years, there is some "common" since. It is a tech's job to not damage the car. Getting all variety of P-cars on a lift takes a little due diligence; a 951 is the most sensitive. it help to have a "good" lift, but even the best takes a bit of work. Having the car centered between the posts, and then getting on the ground...yes, bending over on your knees and looking. Then choosing your favorite wooden blocks for each application (that you have amassed from years of experience) should be deliberately placed on solid frame points/suspension mounts.
Porsche factory training taught me that a large part of the job (Porsche tech) is showmanship. You will have to display your training. Being deliberate in your actions, clean and organized, courteous and engaging with the client is what' required. Another thing very important; technician priority. Meaning that the customer is second in interest after the car. Yes the car is the primary focus and the "Hippocratic" oath is required. It's very easy for a tech to allow himself to become jaded by a d-bag customer and let that reflect in his attitude toward the car. Sometimes you have to put blinders on and fix the car.
Porsche factory training taught me that a large part of the job (Porsche tech) is showmanship. You will have to display your training. Being deliberate in your actions, clean and organized, courteous and engaging with the client is what' required. Another thing very important; technician priority. Meaning that the customer is second in interest after the car. Yes the car is the primary focus and the "Hippocratic" oath is required. It's very easy for a tech to allow himself to become jaded by a d-bag customer and let that reflect in his attitude toward the car. Sometimes you have to put blinders on and fix the car.
this is exactly what didn't happen...
and i know you're not necessarily calling me a dbag, but preventing damage to my car was acting like one?
i think the lesson learned here is to not take your car anywhere unless you absolutely have to because people don't care about you or your car and you're a dbag if you expect a high end shop to care...
03-30-2011, 03:46 PM
#71
Rennlist Member
Personally I don't think your in the wrong. It's your car, your money... if you see something that you know is wrong then it's best to inform them. For them to get upset and give the behavior they did is frankly immature. If you decide to take your business some where else then why not, your paying for the service and deserve quality worksmanship. Now if you were rude than the would be a different story, but I didn't feel like you were. JMHO
03-30-2011, 03:50 PM
#72
Nordschleife Master
this is exactly what didn't happen...
and i know you're not necessarily calling me a dbag, but preventing damage to my car was acting like one?
i think the lesson learned here is to not take your car anywhere unless you absolutely have to because people don't care about you or your car and you're a dbag if you expect a high end shop to care...
and i know you're not necessarily calling me a dbag, but preventing damage to my car was acting like one?
i think the lesson learned here is to not take your car anywhere unless you absolutely have to because people don't care about you or your car and you're a dbag if you expect a high end shop to care...
03-30-2011, 03:54 PM
#73
Race Car
03-30-2011, 05:28 PM
#74
Rennlist Member
no being out of line at all..
I took my 928 in for an alignment.. had several discussions with the manager and service desk girl about not unweighting the front wheels before aligning as it will affect ride height and therefore the alignment... she even wrote it on the paperwork for the tech... i walk out and look and low and behold they have the front lifted...
I told them to take it down and give me the keys.. went in and talked to the manager and as he was apologizing the tech came in as began arguing with me and telling me about how he was a 20 year pca member and he used to align 20+ 911's a week... blah, blah, blah... never went back.
I took my 928 in for an alignment.. had several discussions with the manager and service desk girl about not unweighting the front wheels before aligning as it will affect ride height and therefore the alignment... she even wrote it on the paperwork for the tech... i walk out and look and low and behold they have the front lifted...
I told them to take it down and give me the keys.. went in and talked to the manager and as he was apologizing the tech came in as began arguing with me and telling me about how he was a 20 year pca member and he used to align 20+ 911's a week... blah, blah, blah... never went back.
03-30-2011, 06:13 PM
#75
Nordschleife Master
Thread Starter
i think this is just one of those situations where people who are techs and owners of cars will never really agree 100%.
it seems the techs here say to just do it yourself if you're so picky... well thats not always an option. so whats wrong with finding a decent shop that will not ignore your concerns? or curse you out for that matter? if that makes you a "twit" then so be it i guess...
it seems the techs here say to just do it yourself if you're so picky... well thats not always an option. so whats wrong with finding a decent shop that will not ignore your concerns? or curse you out for that matter? if that makes you a "twit" then so be it i guess...