sydneyman

lets just say don't go to THE german specialty shop in Thomasville Georgia...

Dougs951

Just because you are a "German car specialist" doesn't mean you have to be a douche.

Oh and how many 968's were there?

I have put my 951 on the lift quite a few times but I had some difficulty putting a 968 cab on the other day, all cars have a trick or two.

sydneyman

you've probably already guessed correctly, but mine was the only one... as a matter of fact i was the only Porsche as well...

Rich Sandor

sydneyman: I'm not gonna sift thru all the crap, but I will get straight to the point:

The cups on the frame were designed to be used as lift points for 4 post lifts at the factory when lifting the entire car at once. In this application, they are capable of supporting the car.

The problem is that they tend to collapse when being used on their own with a floor jack. It seems to me that you have wrongly associated that fact with 4 point lift usage as well. It is perfectly safe and normal to put a 4 post hoist support under the front cup (assuming it hasn't collapsed)

So, in my opinion, you basically gave the tech a hard time for something you thought was right, that in the end wasn't, and they gave YOU a hard time for being a picky misinformed customer.

Business as usual in the car industry!

sydneyman

i think you should have sifted through more crap. i don't classify getting cursed out being given a hard time... especially as a paying customer...


and to be honest, if the lift point can't hold less than half the car's weight at once, it shouldn't be used to hold a quarter of the weight, especially after 20 years. and forgive me if i was utilizing the collective wisdom of a model specific forum in the real world... isn't that the point?

i appreciate the technical history on the lift points though, ive often wondered why they are even there if you can't use them...

sydneyman

and for the record they weren't using any spacers on the lift. it was just a flat surface that was protruding on either side of the front lift point which was bending up the side skirt...didn't cause any damage but thats how i saw it from 3 bays away in the waiting room...

supes6

Rich.. I'm confused. I've seen this photo circling around RL with your name on it, and the lift points in question are marked "do not use" while the frame rails are being used as lift points. Your post seems to contradict what I am seeing in your diagram here.

fpb111

OK here is another view point on folks that make a living on lifting cars all day everyday:

In 1994 I bought a new Ford Aerostar to use as my tow car. The dealer had a free first oil change and driveshaft check (driveshaft was "plastic" with glued on aluminum ends) at 3k miles. So I took it in and watched from the lounge while they put it on the lift to perform the service.
That weekend I was crawling around underneath looking for the trailer hitch mounting points when I noticed the front rockers were crushed about 1.5" with dents shaped like the lift arms. You could not see the dents unless you were even with the bottom of the van.

I brought it back to the service manager and told him something must have gone wrong when they lifted my new van. He apologized and immediately made an appointment with their in house body shop.
I wasn't really thrilled that they had been damaged but the rockers were fixed and repainted.

When I went to pick up the van I had to walk through the lot behind the repair shop to get it. I looked under every Aerostar that had been serviced and every one had crushed rockers. I started looking under Aerostars that had that dealers logo on them. Almost all of them had crushed rockers.

I looked in my brand new Aerostar repair manual. There were at least two places with WARNING when using a service lift on the frame use spacer Ford #xxx when lifting the Aerostar or body damage may occur.

This was at a Ford dealership where the techs made a living lifting cars all day every day.

Aerostars developed a rep for rusting rockers. The drain holes in the rocker seams were crushed flat on mine before they replaced them.

I always wondered if that dealer was the only one with techs that did not take the time to setup the right rubber spacers for the lift, all day every day.

sydneyman

the irony is thats how i found out how to lift the car "properly"... wish i made that connection sooner... thanks Karl

Rich Sandor

Karl, yes I made that image to discourage people from using those cups with their floor jack, as they always collapse when used with just the floor jack. However the reality is that they can be used safely when the weight is distributed evenly across them.

The reason they were not used on my car (the one in the image) is because they had already been completely collapsed.

Rich Sandor

FWIW, over the years, the frame rail on my 951 and 968 has deformed quite a bit in various places from all the times I've put them up on Jackstands.

Our cars have really ****ty frames compared to newer ones. (remember it was based on the 924 from the 70s)

sydneyman

sorry, i "wrongly associated" "Do not use" with "Do not use".

and looks like i also "wrongly associated" "Hoist/jackstand points" with "Hoist/jackstand points"

i can't believe you put out an image (which i still maintain is correct and should be followed no matter what based on my own experience since learning of the issue) and try to call me out for listening to you. thanks.

Rich Sandor

That's what you get for listening to 'internet experts' LOL

I should have put "maybe okay to use with a hoist as long as it hasn't collapsed" but I got lazy and just put "do not use.." So, I'll apologize: I'm sorry that you got in a tiff with a shop based on my laziness.

Nonetheless the frame rail is still the better option, I think we can all agree on that.

sydneyman

then we are agreed, i was in the right? make up your miiiiiiiiind!

Rich Sandor

The customer is always right.