Sajid

You always hear about the highly coveted M030 option but what exactly does that entail? I know there are thicker sway bars, but what else? Different shocks too? I think they're the koni yellows right? What about springs?

My car currently has the M474 option, and these have the koni yellows on them. The PO changed out the back two so he says those are in good shape but the front two are original and my car now has over 200k on it. He also said that these konis arent made anymore, but they do have the "inserts". I looked into the archives and found instructions on how to perform this job, but im just curious as to what the best way is to have my suspension setup.

I know that this can vary highly depending on the driver and the application (street vs track etc.) My car is gona be strictly street aside from an occasional DE. So with that in mind, and assuming that i have the m474 option, whats my best bet? I think that i will definitely look into the thicker m030 sway bars (any ideas on how much they cost?), but what else should i be looking for? I want a tight car, as the car has alot of body roll as it is, but i definitely dont want a harsh ride. I hear alot of people talking about spring rates and camber/caster and bunch of other suspension stuff that goes over my head.

So for a lamen like me when it comes to suspension, where do i start, and how much is it gona cost me approximately?

thanks guys...

ninefiveone

You've got Ollie's former '88, right?

M030 is a pretty comprehensive package. Shocks (Koni Yellows), higher spring rate (~175), sways, S4 calipers/rotors in front. Lots of the stuff that makes a turboS a turboS. Doesn't include LSD.

The M030 sways that everyone refers to (and I have) are 968 M030's sways. 19mm adj in the rear and I forget the front.

For your usage, I'd suggest the m030 sways, get the front struts rebuilt and since I helped install the rear shocks on your car, I can vouch for their condition as well.

Leave the spring rate alone. I think for predominately street usage, that's a good setup.

Check out prices at paragon-products.com. Oliver can tell you where he got his last set of Koni's rebuilt...

Sami951

[quote]Originally posted by ninefiveone:
<strong>The M030 sways that everyone refers to (and I have) are 968 M030's sways. 19mm adj in the rear and I forget the front. </strong><hr></blockquote>



It's a hollow 30mm.

Skip

Hi Sajid - here are *some* options, and an opinion based on your needs statement...

First, it's Big O's old car - so, no telling what that butcher has done [kidding] I assume he replaced the rears with used Konis - maybe ask him how "used" they were.

Since you're primarily concerned with street, how about this:

- New Konis (at least the front - 8641-1414S inserts)
- 200# front springs (can lower ~1", or leave at stock height using spacers)
- 968 M030 stabilizers

If you're not satisfied with the ride after this amount of work, then it's time to talk higher spring rates front and rear, and possibly some bushings changes, etc. Taking it another step would proabably not yield much street-driven satisfaction, but this is what it looks like:

- camber plates
- strut brace
- front coil-over conversion
- rear T-bar change, or coil-over conversion
- upgraded bushings (Weltmeister, Delrin, or Metal/Spherical)

Any component you don't understand the function of, just ask.

Good Luck!

Sajid

Hey thanks guys. Hugh, Skip, I didnt realize my cars reputation preceded ME. Looks like Oliver is well known around these parts.

Skip, since you are the MAN when it comes to this stuff I think you're suggestions sound like good ones.

I think I will definitely go for the 968 sway bars and the koni inserts. About the springs though, will 200# springs really stiffen up the ride?
What if I were to do only the konis and sways first and see how I like it and then go with the springs if necessary? Or am I gona have to take everything apart again if I decide to do that?

How much of this is doable by a fairly decent at home mechanic? (namely, myself). Are there any other minor tweeks that I can do to improve handling without sacrificing the ride too much?

And finally, since I only get parts from Paragon, how much will this stuff run me?

thanks again fellas!

944Play

Doesn't M030 mean threaded spring perches on the struts?

Big O

Lurking in the shadows, the dark creature rears his head . . . ;-)

Hey, I don't ever intend to tell anyone what to do, but let me tell you what four years of DE driving taught me. I also don't men to contradict anyone here, so please, no offense!

MY old car DESPERATELY needs new Konis in front - they were already worn when I bought it with 160k. The rears on this M474 had been replaced with totally stock Sachs shocks, so I tossed those in favor of new rear Koni Yellows from Paragon.

I then bought the whole M474 setup from my other 951 (now Ryan's), and intended to put that 60k mile set into your '88 (then my street car) while putting my other (stashed away while they were still being built) NEW struts and shocks into my S2 Cabriolet. And I started to put thse 60k mile rears on your car, but never got to the fronts.

So your car has a 60k rear Konis that tested fine when I poked around with them. They also handled fine when on the '87 951, which I tracked for a year.

Soooo . . . I would have to give a hearty recommendation to leaving the springs and rears alone, and rebuilding the fronts (through Paragon, of course). ;-) Then go drive the car at a DE. Maybe, *IF* you want to gain adjustability for the tail and reduce lean a bit, I would put on the 968 M030 bars (I have those on my '89 951 track ho), but I would not futz with the springs. I found that YOUR '88 as well as my '87 handled BEAUTIFULLY,even though they leaned a bit, with the factory springs. I ran a 1:24 at Blackhawk with that '87 and your exact suspension and brakes - and that's nothing to sneeze at with street tires (coincidentally, the exact rim and tire combo that you have on there now!).

So, I know I'm way too wordy, but please DRIVE the car in a DE before you shift the suspension settings around! But yes, in any case, DO rebuild the front struts no matter what, they need it badly. I've seen WAY too many total newbies and students of mine change stuff around (i.e. 200# front springs) and end up with a car that plows! Sure, it FEELS "quicker" on the street because the transient responses are more immediate, and it's fine and safe if it understeers more, but on the track it'll make you slower - so why not save your $$$ for the parts you really NEED? (I.e, the oil pan gasket and rod bearings - all the springs in the world won't help if you spin a bearing!).

Do suspension changes when you're ready for them, not just "because you should"!

I promise, you won't be disappointed . . . ;-)

(Sorry to sound so "preachy" . . . . but I feel like I'm dealing with one of my "children"!) ;-)

Oliver (voice of reason)
'91 S2 Cab
'89 951
'00 Buell 1203cc
'00 Buell 492cc

Sajid

Hey Oliver,

I was just about to send you a link to this thread but looks like someone beat me to it. Unless you actually started looking beyond the email lists.

Anyhow, thanks for all the responses and I was just asking all these questions just to get an idea of whats out there. I know that I needed to change the front struts for sure, so i figured I might as well ask about the rest of the suspension as well.

But yeah, I think im gona get those inserts next spring and go for the 968 sway bars as well. (Anyone selling them perchance?).

BTW Olli, I still need to come pick up the few remaining items for the car. But it seems like you're out of town on a weekly basis ;-)
Let me know whenever you get the chance.

Oh, and skip, do you think you could save me a phone call and give me some price quotes on these items... With the "Big O" discount of course...

thanks again guys...

Big O

Uh-oh, we're creating a monster . . . ;-)

There's a "Big O" discount? ;-0 Hey, I should look into that. Hehe. I break enough parts!

Yeah, I still have that floorboard, alarm key, paperwork blah blah. All here in my pile. I'm actually home this weekend AND next, so maybe we can get together?

Wanna meet us at Player's? I'm heading there right now!

O

PS: And get those struts out over the winter so they can rebuild yours, or do an "exchange" with them!

Doug Donsbach

With the age and miles on most cars, even an M030 is probably more slack and worn than even a good stock 944NA suspension.

Matt O.

[quote] will 200# springs really stiffen up the ride?
<hr></blockquote>

Go with the 200# springs. My 944 is my daily driver and I have them (from Paragon BTW) and they aren't too stiff at all. Quite comfortable really.

I recommend 'em.

-Matt

Big O

Matt, what did you do to the rear suspension to eliminate/adjust for the added understeer that the stiffer front springs cause? And what kind of track time improvements did you see?

I agree that 200# is NOT uncomfortable, and even 300# or 400# can feel just "peachy" - it's usually too much damping (stiff shocks) that cause a "harsh" ride.

But if you stiffen the front in relation to the rear, you're going to get more understeer. Period. Since these cars are set up to understeer a bit from the factory, plus the larger than OEM rear:front tire width ratio most people have (as in Sajid's case) also adds understeer, he would end up with a plowing pig.

I'll sit here and bounce up and down until I'm red in the face and sound like a broken record(and I do that a lot - seems to be my job!), do NOT change the suspension unless you do it in proper combination front and rear - unless you're addressing a particular handling trait in a TARGETED manner. <img src="graemlins/jumper.gif" border="0" alt="[jumper]" />

Once Sajid goes on the track, we'll talk alignment specs!

Oliver
'91 S2 Cab
'89 951
PCA Chicago/Lincoln Trail since 1990
Quattro Club/ACCNA Instructor
Rennlist Member

Sajid

boy, theres alot to be learned about the right suspension setup. I guess ill take it one step at a time.

Oliver, I emailed you a few questions, get back to me whenever you get the chance.

back to work..... <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

Skip

[quote]Originally posted by Sajid:
<strong>I think I will definitely go for the 968 sway bars and the koni inserts. About the springs though, will 200# springs really stiffen up the ride?<hr></blockquote></strong>

Not a huge difference, but yes, a difference. Oliver makes a good point that uprating the front without matching the rear is risky because it may introduce even more plowing... however, this little uprate is to control body roll on braking and turn-in... keep the so-called "weight-transfer" under more control. Excessive and abrupt "weight transfer" can induce oversteer before the spring rate mismatch has a chance to be a factor (over bumps, etc.) With the stock rate at ~150 for your car, this is a "little" better. The other advantage is the ability to lower your center of gravity - always beneficial for handling.

[quote]<strong>What if I were to do only the konis and sways first and see how I like it and then go with the springs if necessary? Or am I gona have to take everything apart again if I decide to do that?<hr></blockquote></strong>

The sways and shocks will make a huge difference for sure, and you could very likely stop there and be completely satisfied.

You do have to take everything back apart (struts), but if you've done it once - twice isn't that hard - the real stickler is in the alignment... might have to get it done twice.

[quote]<strong>How much of this is doable by a fairly decent at home mechanic? (namely, myself). Are there any other minor tweeks that I can do to improve handling without sacrificing the ride too much? <hr></blockquote></strong>

Not hard at all - requires a strut compressor (or a good local parts store that offers this as a service) and a solution for the 22mm top nut (if you don't have an air impact wrench). There's a Tech-Session article relevant to this, but the domain transfer just took place tonight [finally!], so the site is offline for the next few days while I work some things out (get my sh*t together). Email me and I'll forward the raw file to you.

[quote]<strong>And finally, since I only get parts from Paragon, how much will this stuff run me?<hr></blockquote></strong>

Everything discussed here is on the site.

Good Luck!

Skip

Sajid, Here's a direct link to the info mentioned above:
<a href="http://64.226.197.185/Paragon/Tech/944_strut_spring_main.htm" target="_blank">944 Strut/Spring Replacement</a>

Skip