Perry 951

I think you should re-think this until you have some more money. $1k does not go that far. You are looking at $500 in gaskets, $300 in rollers and H20 pump, $100 in motor mounts, $150 in hoses (do them), $400 for the crank, $300 for the oil pump, $200 for new bearings, $50 for vac lines,$300 for tools.

Now... what will you do when you crack it open and you have some sigifigant scoring, something cracked or broken? Just a thought.

I would plan on having at least $2k ready to put into it, and if you don't spend it, great. But you do not want to half-*** it. Do it once, do it right, or you will pull it all back apart and toss the $500 in gaskets and such in the trash.

David Floyd

I agree with Danno on what to do while your in there.

And Perry is correct you need to wait and save up some more money.

Check around on the hoist and stand, I just paid $170 for both at a local tool shop.

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Ahmet

Tabor, I will be getting the head rebuilt, probably equalizing the chambers, and elarging intake ports a bit too. The mods to the head will be determined by the lack of surprises (hopefully) once the engine is open. At the very least it'll be rebuilt and o-ringed (for $&lt;250, at local shop).

Ski, thanks for the heads up, I have e-mailed him, he's working on a complete kit with a price.

Danno, thank you for the response I think I'll stop at the crank lightenning and even then only if I can get somebody to do it for something reasonable.

Perry:

"$300 in rollers and H20 pump", has updated style pump, with new rollers. I will not replace these unless I find them to be in bad shape when I get to them.

"$100 in motor mounts, $150 in hoses (do them)", all underhood hoses are new, except for two which I will be replacing.

"$400 for the crank" I'd like to spend closer to $200 for the crank, and I think a local place might be up to this. If it won't be less than $350 or so, I'm not doing it...

"$300 for the oil pump", there's no way I'm going to pay $300 for an oil pump. I highly doubt I'll need one, if I do I bet I can get one for less than $100.

"$200 for new bearings"these are included in the rebuild kit.

"$50 for vac lines" I've replaced every vacuum hose under the hood, including boost hoses/limes most of them custom matched at a local hydrolics shop (most hoses they used were made for forklifts, construction equipment, etc.)

"$300 for tools" I have some tools, those I don't have I can usually borrow from one of the shops I've worked at.

"Now... what will you do when you crack it open and you have some sigifigant scoring, something cracked or broken?" then I'll be screwed, no denying that. But to my standards this car is not drivable as is. If I need more money car'll stay apart until I have more money... On the flipside, I have about $600 left on my credit card so if something does go wrong I have a bit of room...

David:
Thank you for making me look around for the engine stand/hoist, I've already decided to shop around. Will go to local stores today. I would also do con-rods at the least "while I'm in there", but the returns for me are not worth it. There was a turbo S in 911&Porsche world pushing 350hp with stock turbo, all stock internals except for head o-ringing and gasket, stock cat-back (but no cat, european market car), stock intercooler, basically stock 'insert here' aside from engine management, FPR, and wastegate with an APEX-i controller, as well as header wrap, but that's it. I'll explain why I won't spend the dough on this, but it's not just because I'm cheap. I've probably dumped around 8k in my 944 NA that wasn't necessary. Doing everything I touched 'the right way' didn't get me jack...

In the last 2 years, I've saved $13k to buy myself a 944 turbo, while keeping my 944. Instead of spending all of that money on a car, I decided to put $5k in savings as I'm still in college and don't receive too much help from my parents. I bought my 944 t with $3k, and spent another $1000 since purchase to take care of brakes, vacuum/boost/fuel lines, interior pieces, and other misc. stuff. I've got $1k left to spend on this car in the immidiate future (I spent the $3k into college stuff, and other BS, trying not to get too much help from my parents, I've been jobless since this semester started so saved $ goes quick). Once I sell my other 944, I'll take care of the suspension, put a roll bar and harnesses in it, and off I'll go to track events. I see people spending $2k+ on turbos alone! That isn't and will not be the case with me, I'd rather have the security of knowing I have money in the bank incase I need it, then to have the fastest car around. When it's time for me to get a turbo (now really), I'll be spending a lot less than most of you guys have, only upgrading to cup+ specs, with warranty... Again, I'm only 19, just started college (I want to get a mechanical engineering degree, then go for something in criminal justice, long time to go). God knows what might happen in the future, in short I need to keep money in the bank. That's my priority not having the fastest car.

Moral of the story, I bought this car with one goal in mind: reliable, cheap, dual purpose car that'll hold it's own on track for the dough. If I do a rebuild chanses are the car'll be a lot more reliable in the long run. I look at this rebuild more as a rod bearing replacement, and replacement of all seals... Everything else I'm doing while I'm in there so to speak!

I'm not flaming, just a bit frustrated don't get me wrong. I do appreciate all the response.
Ahmet

Outlaw952

I dyno'd my car ('89 951) a year ago with a blown head gasket (was blown just a bit at #4 cylinder, letting water in after the car cooled down). Car had Autothority Stage II chips, K&N cone, Lindsay boost enhancer, cat bypass test pipe. Everything else was stock. She ran 285hp and 335tq. The HP curve is nice and smooth (doesnt have the dip that danno has at 5000rpm). Max HP at 4250rpm, then a straight slope from there to 175hp at 6800rpm. Torque maxes at 4500 and stays there till 5500rpm then slowly drops off to 300 at 6800rpm. This is running at 17-18psi (not really sure didnt have a boost gauge then). A/F was rich 10:1 until 4000rpm then crept up 13.5:1 at 5500rpm then fell back to about 13:1 at 6800rpm.

I now have an AFPR on the car, and I have it at about 3bar right now, and my boost is for sure running around 18psi in 4th. I hear that you make the most power at 12.5:1 A/F and I was hoping to accomplish this by tuning the AFPR tommorow on the dyno. Do you think I will make it, and will I make more hp and/or torq? From this discussion the consensus is that I will need bigger injectors to get more than 280hp....

OZ951

If you decide to replace the valve guides while you have the engine apart, then you'll need to have the valve seats reground to ensure that you still have a good seal.

If you open up the oil passages in the head and block then there are a few plugs that you need to replace that are not included in the rebuild kits.

Several other seals are also not included in the rebuild kits (Turbo oil Orings, dipstick and some others - aluminium washers foor coolant fittings and sensors etc). Also check that the rebuild kit you get does include the seals for the oil cooler. You mau also need new thermostats (& seals). While you have the clutch out you may need to replace some bearings in there (fork shaft bearings).

Other machine work that may be needed - crank polish, flywheel reface, head reface.

The small stuff adds up surprisingly quickly so it pays to consider it (budget for it) before you start. You may end up needing to replace some hardware if it looks like it has had a hard time with rounded off edges etc. I made a list of hardware and seals on my web page, it may provide some guidance.

Like some of the others have said, there will probably be some unexpected parts that are worn or broken so your budget should have an allowance for that. I found a broken valve spring, broken oil pan insert, bad clutch fork shaft & bearings.

This is not meant to put you off by the way, I just think your $1000 budget is fairly optimistic. So with the lessons that myself and others have been through hopefully you can see that you'll probably need a bit more cash before you get started.

Wayne

Danno

"While you have the clutch out you may need to replace some bearings in there (fork shaft bearings). "

The clutch is a bear to replace, so do it right the first time. Definitely replace the pilot bearing. And the clutch-fork itself may need replacing depending upon wear. You might even find that it may be a good idea to replace the clutch too.

David Floyd

How do you tell if the clutch fork is worn enough to replace? Mine does have worn places and the shaft it rides on has some grooves in it. I guess to be safe I should change them both since the engine is out.

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John Anderson

Over1G,

I must have deleted the email by mistake, call me at the shop tomorow...619 441 1359.

I'll be glad to help you out :-)

Doug

I would not lighten the crank or flywheel, it will not idle as well after and the only benefit is in neutral for faster rpms who cares unless you need it for double clutching and dont mind a rough idle. Porsche would have done it if it was any real benefit. There is a certain clarity in just bringing things back into good service working order. In the long haul it always makes sense. You can polish your own crank with jewlers cloth and bust the glaze on that flywheel with wet and dry silicon carbide paper and a palm sander. Keep it simple and focus on the areas truely in need and your engine and wallet will both be happier. "if it aint brokee..dont fixee".
kudos to you for doing your own engine work, many lack the resources or patience to tackle it. Doug

Danno

Rather than looking at qualitative black & white, yes/no, dos and don'ts about this crank-lightening thing, let's look at some quantitative values. At 19lbs, the stock crank is already about 8lbs heavier than other four-bangers. The crank is massive as well as the rods & pistons.

What we're talking about is lightening it to be in line with other cars that don't have idling problems. That's like taking just 4-5lbs off the flywheel and 4-5lbs off the crank. Along with another 1lb each off the rods. That's not a whole lot and idle and shifting won't be affect one bit. This is from empirical data from actual field-testing of actual cars.

Sure from an ivory-tower qualitative blanket statement, you can say that lightening these parts will give you driveability problems. But at how much and how many lbs removed will these issues surface? That is the question. On the extreme side, yes taking the 19lb flywheel down to a 7lb aluminum one and shaving 15lbs off the crank may cause you difficulties. But no one's recommending that much.

Doug

Danno, I would like to see ANYBODY produce dyno results showing some noteworthy increase in torque at the rear wheels by ligntening the crank and flyweel. If your double clutching and need fast rpms in neutral or want to hear it rev fast in your g-rage, knock yourself out. Lighter rods are reciprocating mass and this is different. And your comment about "other 4cyl motors" are we talking "other 2.5 liter" motors? Lastly, and not to start a flame but what R&D are you basing your post upon? How many engineers were involved in just deciding the 944 turbo crank is in need of being lightened. I have heard the factory racing 944 turbos had stock blocks and stock forged cranks at 450 hp. There are lots of bogus claims out there about performance most of them are "profit" motovated, and the "performance" is all in our heads". Your car, your wallet, be happy. Doug

adrial

Outlaw, 285hp to the rear wheels?

What size test pipe do you have? 3" 2.5"?

The g-tech said 265 on my car...but I dunno if that's accurate...that was at 18psi with stock everything but chips and jet in the banjo bolt.

thanks,
Adrial

Outlaw952

Not sure about the diameter. Its the Bursche pipe that Vertex sells. When hooking it up, it didnt look larger that the stock cat back that is on my car. So my guess is that it is the same as stock. Also, dyno'ed this weekend, and it did about the same as last year (actually droped 5hp and tq) with ported heads and AFPR. Looks like my Throttel Position Sensor is bad. I hear clicks at the idle position, but none when it gets to full throttle. Also measured Pin #2 on the TPS and it was inifinite the whole time. Haynes says it should go from infinite to 0 Ohms. But Haynes also says turbo cars are supposed to have 12 pin connectors, and measure off #6 pin. I only have 6 pin (which sounds like nonturbo). So I'm not sure what to believe. Anyway, if my TPS is bad, this makes sense why my A/F curve looks so rich in midrange, and why it makes a difference at full throttle if I have the O2 sensor plugged in or not. The guys at the dyno said since the TPS is not working correctly, it will be running the wrong fuel map at full throttle. Anyone else agree?