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Time to buy... 19mm Cup Sway bar or 22mm Weltmeister Sway Bar

 
Old 04-07-2002, 04:23 PM
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*Michael.*
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Post Time to buy... 19mm Cup Sway bar or 22mm Weltmeister Sway Bar

It is now time to purchase the rear sway bar for my car. I would appreciate some suggestions on which I should go with depending on your experiences.

The 19mm 944 Cup car bar
or
The 22mm Weltmeister bar

Things I have or will be running

250lb front springs
28mm Torsion bars
30mm Front 944 Cup bar

The Weltmeister bar is a little less but the cup bar is adjustable. What do you guys think?

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Old 04-07-2002, 04:47 PM
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PorscheG96
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The cup rear bar isn't 19mm, that's the 968 M030 bar you're refering to. The cup rear bar is 21mm and Weltmeisters are pretty heavy.
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Old 04-08-2002, 01:02 AM
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I thought the Weltmeister was adjustable. Here's a quote from the paragon website:

"All Weltmeister sway bars are fully adjustable, allowing you to custom balance your car's handling. Adjustment is quick and simple with an infinitely adjustable slider clamp."
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Old 04-08-2002, 02:13 AM
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I was just going off of the Paragon item #944CUPSB

Regardless of all that, which bar do you guys think that I should go with?

Does anyone have suggestions because of experience?
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Old 04-08-2002, 04:00 AM
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It depends upon the kind of driving you're going to do. I had the 968 M030 hollow bars on my car earlier and for general around-town and spirited back-roads driving, they were a great improvement over the TurboS bars on my car that the PO had installed. I can't imagine how anyone could drive a Turbo with the stock sway bars...

Anyway, when I went to more competitive track racing, the adjustment range on the rear M030 bar was insufficient and was too rough. With only three bolt-on positions to choose from, I would get understeer in the softest position, yet the next one up in stiffness (middle hole) would give me oversteer.

Then I installed the Weltmeister adjustable bars; they were comparable to the M030 bars when adusted near the middle of their range. However, at full stiffness front & rear, the car had significantly less body-roll than the 968 M030 bars. And... the biggest benefit of them all... was infinitely fine adjustments.

At the track, I typically crank the front bar to full stiffness (968 M030 front bar's not adjustable) initially, and set the rear in the middle of its range. Depending up on track, I'll make fine-tuning adjustments at the rear bar only and usually it takes only about 1/4" of adjustment either way to dial in the exact balance I want. This 1/2" range fits well inside of two adjustment positions on the M030 bars.

So really, there's no 'perfect answer' to the Weltmeister vs. 968 M030 swaybar comparison. It really depends upon the type of driving you're going to be doing. Also the centering hose-clamps on the Weltmeisters are cheesey at best. I had to replace mine with four split collet clamps ($60) to make it work well.
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Old 04-08-2002, 06:09 AM
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Hey Danno,

How do all of these sways (Turbo S M030, 968 M030, Weltmeister, and Cup) compare weight-wise? I've always heard the Welts were really heavy (Weightmeister), but have never picked any of them up to compare. Any input?

Also, are the Cup rear sways (21mm) adjustable? Have you ever tried them to compare their performance to the others? Is there any place I could go (online or otherwise) that would have ALL of these bars listed w/their specs (sizes, adjustability options, etc)?

Hey Michael, thanks for starting this thread- I didn't mean to thread leach, but the answers you got here, made me think...

Thanks,
Robby
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Old 04-08-2002, 06:10 AM
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Thanks Danno,

That is what I was looking for. We have some amazing Auto-X racing here in Germany. Not to mention The Hockenheim that you can go and drive on.

What I am looking for is the best performing and most adjustable bar. Thanks

Robby,

Any additional info is helpful. Not a problem <img src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" border="0" alt="[bigbye]" />
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Old 04-08-2002, 06:19 AM
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I know that we're trying to keep down on weight, but how much is too much weight. When will you really notice a problem? A full tank of gas, sure, maybe the spare.

??? How much weight does it take to slow us down. I have won and lost by hundreths of seconds, but I am not consistant enough with learning a brand new track for one day, make 5 runs and be able to nail it to notice 5lbs. So, what else would add weight to look out for?
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Old 04-08-2002, 08:46 AM
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Here is another question. How much of a difference will Koni Sports make on a smooth Auto-X track compared to oem shocks?
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Old 04-08-2002, 10:07 AM
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The 21MM Turbo Cup Rear bar is 3 way adjustable.
(3 holes)
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Old 04-08-2002, 11:05 AM
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Hey Michael:
I don't think you can compare adjustable dampers like the Koni sports or racing types especially, to the stock dampers.
(There is a thread from a few days ago Danno started talking about his Welts and his seemingly soft 25.5 mm rear torsion bars. I will try to find it and bump it)
I was encouraged by his theory, as I do not like a really stiff suspension.
And I think your overly stiff rear 28 mm torsion bars will overpower your spindly 250 # front springs.
I think you might want to go dampers first, sway bars second (and after your mind is boggled with adjustability) do the springs.
You might find you have a very flat, compliant ride for street and auto cross.
Stiff springs guarantee you harshness and chattering all day long, except at high speeds on the right piece of asphalt.
But then again, it's all personal opinion....

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Old 04-08-2002, 02:03 PM
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I haven't weighed the 968 M030 bars, but I would say they're about 10 pounds lighter than the Weltmeister combo. I've actually narrowed that gap a quite a bit by cutting 1.5" off the ends of the front bars since I never use the softest settings (-3lbs) and also removed the 1/2" solid steel spacer between the D-bushings clamp and main body mounts.

The lightest swaybars set (and stiffest as well) are probably the Lindsey Racing ones.
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Old 04-08-2002, 06:26 PM
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[quote]Originally posted by Michael Adkins:
<strong>Here is another question. How much of a difference will Koni Sports make on a smooth Auto-X track compared to oem shocks?</strong><hr></blockquote>

You should consider them *standard equipment* and the first step (before, or in conjunction with stabilizers) if you want to win (speaking of more than just Konis, but you made the specific reference).

The 19mm and 21mm *Porsche* rear sway bars are adjustable. The 21mm bar is RARE (and expensive), so if you find a source, please let *us* know

The Welts are considerably heavier than the 968 M030 bars (not sure by how much). Why is this important? Because it's all about time when you're racing... transition_time in this case. The heavier the bar, the longer it takes to react... not to mention it keeps the overall vehicle weight down. Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending how you look at it), very little of the stabilizer and linking components are part of the unsprung weight... so no real advantages with weight savings there.

So, if the 968 M030 bars are not adjustable enough, or do not have high enough rates (rear)... but, the Welts are too heavy and sometimes have component issues... how about a hollow stabilizer set with spherical bearings and CNC'd components and full non-incremented adjustability!?!
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Old 04-08-2002, 07:20 PM
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(posted this to the other recent swaybar thread but it seems to have died out.)

Two questions:

1) Without removing the torsion bar and measuring with a caliper, is there a way to determine what size torsion bar is installed, ie stampings on the ends, etc. ? Any clever ways to guesstimate? For example, sand bags in the trunk and measuring compression.

I suspect the previous owner of my 968 had the car set up for the track and installed thicker torsion bars. The rear ride height is lower than the front, and the fender lips have been rolled. I think when the car was sold he may have removed the front springs/shocks, rear shocks, but left the torsion bar in for obvious reasons.

2) I have Koni yellows and 250# front springs on the way to my garage. Assuming I have stock 968 torsion bars (25.5 correct?), what would you guys recommend as a starting point for the shock settings? Bear in mind that I prefer oversteer to understeer, but I don't want to overdamp the rear to comphensate for the balance.

thanks
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Old 04-08-2002, 07:41 PM
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[quote]Originally posted by chris luckett:
<strong>Without removing the torsion bar and measuring with a caliper, is there a way to determine what size torsion bar is installed, ie stampings on the ends, etc. ? Any clever ways to guesstimate? For example, sand bags in the trunk and measuring compression.</strong><hr></blockquote>

No real way to tell, save for the sandbag trick... and even that would seem to be a SWAG unless they were hugely different. If you're front springs were never higher than 250#, then it's fairly safe to assume the T-bars remained stock - but may have been indexed. No stamps on the ends (which you couldn't see anyway without removing the caps, which requires dropping the carrier, etc)

[quote]<strong>I suspect the previous owner of my 968 had the car set up for the track and installed thicker torsion bars. The rear ride height is lower than the front, and the fender lips have been rolled. I think when the car was sold he may have removed the front springs/shocks, rear shocks, but left the torsion bar in for obvious reasons.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Sneaky, but not unheard of. I met a guy from Idaho that had a basically stock 944, but with a welded-in cage and lightweight interior (no carpet padding, etc). Come to find out 6 months after he bought it, it was campaigned in the early-90's in SCCA... got wrecked, cut the front, rewelded, repainted, etc... but they left the hollow 31mm rear torsion bars in and put all the stock components back on.

If he removed all that stuff, it's very likely it had the factory M030 setup installed... this would have included the rear coil-over helper spring on Konis on rear, and the ride-height adjustable coil-over Konis on front. The helper spring with the stock torsion bars is a very effective and popular track setup... but, the rear ride-height would have been lowered to accomodate such a change and better balance the car. This would account for your butt-dragging appearance .

[quote]<strong>I have Koni yellows and 250# front springs on the way to my garage. Assuming I have stock 968 torsion bars (25.5 correct?), what would you guys recommend as a starting point for the shock settings? Bear in mind that I prefer oversteer to understeer, but I don't want to overdamp the rear to comphensate for the balance.</strong><hr></blockquote>

First, if you're swapping out the stock springs for the 250# ones, you're probably going to drop the front by an inch or so... will this be enough to level the rake? What position is the rear spring plate in? (speaking of ride-height eccentric)

Konis: Depends on what you're doing.... the Konis are stiffer out of the box (full soft) than the stock dampers were when new... so if you enjoy comfort and just want a mild improvement, leave them there. If you're headed to the track, or try to determine asphalt separation characteristics whilst driving to the grocery, maybe go half-stiff. You should never need full-stiff, especially if you are running the spring rates discussed here.

Good Luck!
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