db944

Ok folks, I just read the thread about 944 values in Excellence. I sent Bruce an e-mail about a year ago asking what his methodology is for determining values. He replied that the values come mostly from reports from readers.

Personally, I think his values for NA cars are pretty close. But his values for Turbos and ESPECIALLY the Turbo S cars are way low.

To challenge him, I also sent him a six month history of every Turbo sold on e-bay. Granted, lots of those cars are dogs, but occasionally one gets bid up into the mid teens. If a nation-wide auction like e-bay can bring top dollar for a top car, sight unseen, then I say it's a pretty good indication of what the market will bear.

Has anyone heard of a low-mileage "excellent" 951S actually being sold anywhere NEAR his 15k "excellent" value??

I sold a 27k mile 951S last year that was "excellent" for $19,500. Didn't see that one in Bruce's column, did you?

I say Mr. Anderson needs to pay much closer attention to the market by utilizing things like e-bay and doing his own post sales surveys if he's going to print market values.

What do you all think?

David B.

keith

I agree, the values are low, but there are so many trashed 951s out there that pull the average cost down...

Mr. Anderson is a nice guy and tries to be as accurate as possible. You can't evidence every sale, I guess....

Z-man

My $0.42:
IMHO, his price guides are the most accurate guides that I have seen. (Other guides: Kelly Blue Book, Old-Car trader, Edmunds...etc).

As with all price guides, a price guide is just an estimate, and a good rule of thumb place to start when buying or selling a car.

Mr. Anderson keeps a database of prices of cars sold throughout the year. Bear in mind that his database is nationwide, so unless you live in an area of the country where the prices are low, you are going to pay a wee bit more than his guides state the car is worth.

Take my case: I bought an good to excellent condition 944S2 for $8k. According to Bruce Anderson's guide, my car's worth is $6907 (Poor) to $7853 (Good) to $10,513 (Excellent). So technically, I paid below market value for my car! BTW: my car was posted in the reader's report column last year, and he rated my buy as an excellent deal.

The rarer cars (ex: 951S) are going for more $$ because people are preceiving these cars have more value. That's a subjective driving force, for the most part.

But, at the end of the day, a car is only worth how much someone is willing to pay for it.

-Zoltan.

Mich924S

That last post says it all IMHO. A car is only worth what someone will pay for it. If your goal is to "move the product", here's what you do when selling your car: Start at a price that you would like to sell the car for, and drop it $500-$1000 every 1-2 weeks. You *will* sell you car. Or, you could be like those guys who's ad you see in the paper week after week after week and they stupidly haven't changed the price. Buyer's price will meet seller's price if you follow my advice. And don't state in your ad "firm"..you won't get a single bite. Just my .02

Flight_951

[quote]Originally posted by db944:
<strong>Has anyone heard of a low-mileage "excellent" 951S actually being sold anywhere NEAR his 15k "excellent" value?? ... I sold a 27k mile 951S last year that was "excellent" for $19,500</strong><hr></blockquote>

Are we talking about the grey over burgundy 951S purchased on eBay (well, purchased off eBay would be more correct) in summer of 2001 from the seller in North Carolina? The reserve originally set on that car's auction, no matter what it went for off eBay, was $15,000... If sellers want to bid them up for personal reasons, that's their problem.

wjk_glynn

[quote]Originally posted by db944:
<strong>Has anyone heard of a low-mileage "excellent" 951S actually being sold anywhere NEAR his 15k "excellent" value??</strong><hr></blockquote>

Here's a candidate:

<a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1863627748" target="_blank">http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1863627748</a>

Time will tell.

Karl.

Mike S.

I'm pretty much with Zoltan on this one but with the following caveat. Examples that are exceptional are not addressed. These are the ones in the top 10-15% of the excellent catagory. (as an aside, it would be most helpful if poor, good, and excellent were defined as they are currently subjective). I'm not surprised that a well maintained, near showroom condition 951S with 27K miles would go for $19,500. This car is not properly covered by Bruce Anderson's retail value guide.

Mike

wjk_glynn

Hi,

so the 6,400 mile 951S was bid up to $21,500 but didn't meet the reserve.

<a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1863627748" target="_blank">http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1863627748</a>

I think that's where the absolute high watermark is for that model.

Karl.

Tom R.

Z
How many miles were on your S2 when you bought it? I paid 11.5 for mine with 56k on it two years and close to $10k ago.

I found the CPI value goide to be pretty accurate.

Z-man

Tom:
I paid $8k for mine in June, 2001. Mileage was a little higher than yours: 120k miles!

I did the cam chain guide/tensioner, timing belt, all seals/gaskets, yadda yadda yadda last winter. I stopped counting the maintenance costs after I hit about $4k, but a lot of that was costs incurred due to making the car more track worthy (better brake pads & fluid, synth tranny oil, harness bar & harnesses, fire extinguisher, bigger tires...and the list goes on...)

rpm's S2

X-
I bought my 89 S2 in March of 2001 for $8500. The car was in excellent condition and had 113k. Bruce Anderson also rated my purchase as excellent. I think we can bet that we paid the right price for out cars and that his valuations, though not perfect, are as accurate as can be expected. Super-low mileage cars are always tough to price - and he has made that point many times. His standard adjustment for low mileage is 10%, but he has stated that sometimes that is not enough for real low numbers.

rpm's S2

Z-
See what happens when I type too fast and don't proofread?

Tom R.

Ralph
10% seems too low to me. I bought my 56k car at a premium because I knew I would only put about 7k a year on it. I figure in four years my 85k car would be worth about 120% of Z's 150k car. Since I have less miles I should require less upkeep etc. Lets keep the mods like my boxster rims your chip etc out of this for the moment. If Z gets 8k in four years shouldnt I get 10 -11k? if i paid 3500 more than Z and get 2000 more on the sale it cost me 1500 more to buy the car, and i saved ? on maintenance.

Now take this scenario that puts much more than a 10% premium on low mileage. What is an 85 NA with 34k worth? My brother paid 7500 last year for his 84 with 34k. he drives 30k a year. at the end of three years his car will have 120k and be worth maybe 3k. It cost him 4500 to drive 90k. pretty cheap. how much would it cost him if he bought a car with 120k last year? say 3k extra maintenance on a car from 120k to 210k? maybe another 2500, cost for the car now 5500. thats more than buying a used one for almost a 100% premium.

Thats why 10% is low. But please dont tell the prospective seller of the 325/328 convertible i plan on buying as soon as i sell the Firebird convertible about this fuzzy math.

Sorry it's so long.

Z-man

Tom,
Interesting fuzzy math. But the scary part: it makes sense to me! But don't forget to factor in the fact that our cars depreciate over time. So, let's say that my $8000 car will be worth 1/4 of it's value in X years, and so will your 11.5k car. So, in X years, my car is worth $2000, and yours is worth $2,875.00: not a big difference.

And:
[quote]
Since I have less miles I should require less upkeep etc<hr></blockquote>
This is not necessarily true: All the items that need to be replaced around 80 - 100k have already been replaced on my car, but most likely not on yours! (Cam chain guide/tensioner, rollers, exhaust, clutch, brakes, oil cooler gasket..etc) That can be a big factor in terms of maintenance dollars.

Just another side of the equation to consider.
-Z.

PS: Your car is definately worth more than mine, especially in terms of mileage: I don't dispute that, of course!

Thaddeus

I've often thought the reader's reports are suspect. People are known to lie a little to show they're savvy buyers. "Yeah, I got it for 9k." Actually it was 9.5 plus 500 bucks in needed fixup...

I've seen that with houses a lot. A neigbor told me he bought his house for 75k (12 years ago). In the sales price column of the local paper it was, in fact, listed as 95.

Anyways, who wants to be the guy who mails in his report on what he paid and get those dry responses that are given when the joker paid way too much? Everybody wants to know they got 'a good buy'.

In short, it isn't scientific or objective at all.

Thaddeus