Mark Hubley

FormulaOne10 beat me to one of my points, which (going back to the top of this thread) is that most SUV buyers don't buy them to go off road, camping, hunting, etc. Most SUV owners buy them for image. I bet that 95% of what people do with SUV's can be done with a mini-van. The mini-van will do the same job with better gas mileage, less roll-over risk, and less risk of doing serious damage to other vehicles in an accident. However, mini-van's simply aren't cool and don't say "status."

Just yesterday I heard about a poll that indicated women want some type of SUV more than any other vehicle. (This is the first time the top choice wasn't some type of car.) I'm sure there are a few women who actually put an SUV to good use, but I'll bet they are a small minority. The bottom line is that the buyers of SUV's want them for the image.

Actually, I guess there is the safety factor as well--at least a perceived safety factor. I'm sure if I was in a head-on collision with a Ford Explorer that my 944 and I would get the worst of it. On the other hand, I wonder if overall safety (avoiding accidents, avoiding roll-overs, etc.) isn't better with a sedan or mini-van than with a typical SUV?

I bet the Cayenne sells well because it will give the owner a double-dose of status--SUV and Porsche. I'm sure there are enough people with the bucks who will buy one just for the prestige factor. That's why people buy X5's, and I'm seeing quite a few of them on the road.

Disclaimer!!! My wife and I recently bought a 1997 Suburban. She is a large animal veterinarian, and she is going to use it as her work vehicle. She hauls a lot of equipment (from syringes to an ultrasound machine), goes off road on farm calls, and needs to be able to tow a horse trailer. She'll be one of the few to get all of the utility out of the SUV.

Mark Hubley

I just looked at the pictures, and the comment about looking like a Hyundai on steroids was right on!

I still bet they hit their sales target. Americans are still eager to jump on that SUV bandwagon.

David G

Well, I gotta throw my .02 in...I agree with some of you-the Cayenne does kinda look like a Hyundai on steroids..not totally unappealing, though. I do remember that Porsche was one of the pioneers of all wheel drive! As far as Toyotas go (as someone mentioned), keep in mind that a new Land Cruiser is $55K!...hardly a good example if you're trying to prove a point about someone's budget. I've spent a little time in the V8 BMW X5 and the Lexus LX470, ..no thanks-they're sleds and they're not for me. I don't suppose the Cayenne will be either. I don't need a truck. A so-called "Sports Utility Vehicle" is like **** on a boar hog, trying too hard to cover too much ground, with no apparent focus, and no single goal acheived. To me, the worst thing about the Porsche SUV is that (according to Christophorus) Cayenne development is Porsche's poor excuse for not participating fully in their motorsports programs the last couple of years. S H A M E !!!! <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

Tabor

If I wanted to tow my track car in style, I would buy one. (If I had the money <img src="graemlins/crying.gif" border="0" alt="[crying]" /> )

I don't mind that Porsche built this, but I certainly wouldn't drive it around town.

Marcus

I don't have any problem with Porsche building a vehicle like this (like I can afford one so it matters) or the cost etc. I just don't think it looks very good. At least the old Lamborghini LM002 off-roader had presence.

Robby

I hate that Porsche has jumped on this band wagon, although I DEFINATELY understand why they did, and I'm sure they will make lots of $$$ off of it- they're just trying to make a buck off an already overly saturated market (it's a business, right?). Personally, I'm sick of the whole SUV, big truck trend that's swept the nation- I HATE IT! It's fine if you actually NEED it, for work or something, but everyone wants to look all rugged and practical, like a bunch of renegades- driving a four-ton, long-bed, extended-cab pick-up, or a full sized SUV. Driving something like that just to get from point A to point B is about as ridiculous as buying a formula one race car to get to work and back. I can't stand sharing the roads w/all of these behemoths. I think many guy's subscribe to the "I've got a bigger car than you do" thing to make up for other insecurities. They all say "but I feel safe in it" and buy them for their kids so they will be "safe" too- their safety comes at our expense unfortunately, and an inexperienced driver behind the wheel of a 3 1/2 ton hunk of metal, that's way too big for them to navigate, is NOT the picture of safety to me. The ONLY reason why THEY may be "safer" in an accident is b/c THEY have 3 times the mass to protect them than does the poor driver of the average sized vehicle they just hit! I can't stand this line of reasoning! Not that drivers of other cars can't ever be at fault- I know I've messed up many times behind the wheel, but it can definately be more difficult to correct a mistake in a full size Dodge Ram than in a Honda Accord...

At any rate, it's funny the things that catch on- most of the people that buy SUV's and pickups and such will never drive them off-road, and many of them won't ever even use the 4WD- it's also amazing how many people will order expensive options like interior packages, sound systems w/DVDs, etc, but won't pay $300 for a LSD- many SUV owners don't even know what "SUV" stands for. It's obviously more for a fashion statement than for practicality or neccesity. It's kind of like cothing trends- I walked through Abercrombie & Fitch the other day, and noticed that everything is torn or ripped to look like it's old and worn out, and they had lots of sports-type looking clothes w/#'s on them like in the '70's. People want to pay extra $$$ to look like they've slept in their clothes for a week. It's like stone-washed jeans: people pay extra $$$ for worn-out clothes. Hell, I've got some used boxers if anyone wants them(?). This grunge/retro thing is silly IMO, w/guys running around w/pants halfway down their asses and their boxers up over their wadded-up-half-way-tucked-in shirts. I saw an episode of "Cops" recently where a guy was running, and very well MIGHT have gotten away, if it wasn't for his pants falling down so low that he TRIPPED over them!

I'm all for people being able to buy what they want as long as it doesn't affect me (of course these large vehicles are often times in the way, and sometimes endanger my safety) and I know that not everyone likes the same cars I do or the same clothes, etc, but I just don't get it. $40K pick-up's, $80K SUV's, $50 bell-bottomed jeans that are ripped and frayed when you buy them- maybe I'm getting too old or something(?)... <img src="graemlins/c.gif" border="0" alt="[ouch]" />

Manning

Hey Mark, this is kind of off topic, but you better get a big brake convertion for your wifes Suburban, especially if she tows a horse trailer. Suburbans have the most pathetic brakes for a vehicle that size that I have ever seen. I am not making this up, they literally have the same front brakes as a Chevy Cavalier. The rotors are honestly not much bigger than my hand. My sister drives one of about the same vintage (may be a 98 or 99) and has to replace the brakes at least twice a year. She is always banging into the back of other cars because 1) she is a crappy driver and 2) the thing is so underbraked. And she doesn't even tow anything. I think Stillen markets a big brake convertion for that vehicle.

billybones

Bizzare day, first thread I read was about 911's type people against water cooled's now this. I don't own a race car anymore cause the company built an SUV <img src="graemlins/c.gif" border="0" alt="[ouch]" /> Who cares that they built an SUV? I don't. I still own a race car. The fact that any one cares what anybody else thinks about YOUR car company. lends back to the people bitching about the 911 people wanting an image.. Strange days indeed...

IanM

Mark,

I couldn't agree with you more. You've said what I was trying to say, in a more diplomatic way. My problem is with SUV owners in general, at least the 97% of them who buy them for image only. I can't count how many times a small lady in her massive SUV has forced me out of my lane, because she couldn't see me. I ended up selling my sportbike last year, because it was just getting a bit too scary on the road. My 951 is so small and low, it sometimes gets missed in the mirrors of those beasts as well.

*Rothmans*

I think the whole issue of practicality and money is moote.
When I was down in Palm Beach, and cruised the A1A, I was horrified by the wealth. It was like, out of a movie.
To all the Ferrari owners down there, sell them. A minivan can do the same job of puttering you around town. And of course the affluent are too busy to waste their time reading this list anyway.
Okay, KEEP YOUR DARN FERRARI'S THEN !!!!!!!!!
The bottom line is, it's all relative.
I will haul my car behind my Chevy Blazer. Yes it's a 944. And I love these cars! If I was rich I would tow my GT3R behind my Cayenne.
Painted to match of course, so I could live out my race car driver fantasy in style.... <img src="graemlins/roflmao.gif" border="0" alt="[hiha]" />

I have seen the end of the 944 line and 928. They were victims of evolution and a poor economy. What I would do to own a 968!!!!!
And low and behold, all Porsche's are water cooled now.

If I could have my way, I would ask them to build a more affordable Boxster. Clearly the evolution of water cooling, light weight, and awesome weight distribution.

Welcome to Porsche Evolution (just like on Need for Speed 5)

THE CAYENNE HAS BEEN UNLEASHED !!!!!!!!!
<img src="graemlins/burnout.gif" border="0" alt="[burnout]" /> <img src="graemlins/burnout.gif" border="0" alt="[burnout]" /> <img src="graemlins/burnout.gif" border="0" alt="[burnout]" /> <img src="graemlins/burnout.gif" border="0" alt="[burnout]" />

TimC

It is indeed truly sad that Porsche has stooped this low. First the Boxster whose lines are nice but too muddled. Then the 911 - using the Boxster front destroys both its own identity and has the same conflicting lines that the rest of the shape - on either car - fails to resolve. Now this horrible road turd. Pointless. I hate to wish malice on these guys, but really I am not interested in anything post-993 - I would like to see their misguided direction bite them. UGH. (Note - it kind of has - 996 values depreciate more like Mercedes than the old 911; maybe they will notice).

Thank goodness they build things generally well and therefore we can keep the REAL ones on the road for practically ever.

T

Bob S. 1984 Silver

Somebody pointed out that Porsche is a small company. You might want to add "closely held" as well. Profit is Paramount.....

Given that, Porsche has not had the wherewithall to adequately test some of the ideas they come up with. Their testing of many items such as electronics is inadequate. Some of their so-called superior engineering is not. Read the owners comments in Pano and Excellence on some of the faults with the latest offerings. Without adequate long term testing, the effect of time on various components is an unknown. Basic systems such as brakes, suspension, hoses, connectors, seats and so on are supplied by outside vendors. And, these parts are the most thoroughly engineered because the outside manufacturers supply many car builders. For the most part, Porsche simply assembles what it buys from others. They have no way of manufacturing each and every part that goes into their cars. It is the same for all manufacturers. Most cars are, by and large, built from a parts bin. The exceptions such as engines have, over the years, shown serious failings (timing belts, chain tensioners, studs pulling from heads, overheating, the list goes on)

I expect the Cayenne body to hold up well. I expect the suspension to do the same. However, I do not feel comfortable with a tall unstable vehicle that can to 0-60 in six seconds on the road driven by what folks have labeled "Soccor Moms" (with a celphone stuck in the ear and 2.4 noisy brats in the rear). The instability is inherent in a tall vehicle, not easily overcome.

Whether it will sell may be a moot point. Of course it will sell. There are a lot of folks out there with more money than brains that want the "prestige" of the Porsche crest. After all, look how many trucks carry the tristar insignia. Will they sell in the long run? Dunno. Like most models that Porsche has trotted out over the past 30 years or so each have a short life (914, 924, 944, 928). They all start strong, then sales fall off. Most of the time this is a decision on the part of the company because the newcomer starts to threaten the old timer of the clan. In this case, with a SUV, the threat will come from outside rather than within. Can Porsche deliver a vehicle that will be reliable, dependable, tolerate minimal maintenance and Benign Neglect?That's what most SUV owners want. Twist the key and go. Is that what Porsche can deliver? IMHO, I do not think so.

Anyway, just my 2 pfennigs worth.

Bob S.

Manning

Hey Rothmans, I have a funny note to add, kind of off topic, about Palm Beach proper (versus West Palm Beach or North Palm Beach where I grew up). When I was down there last year for my sister's wedding my mom pointed out that there were more houses for sale on Palm Beach for over 10 million dollars than for under that amount.

I also wanted to point out, since you kind of elluded to it, that for the most part, virtually all purpose built Porsche factory race cars have been water cooled in some way since the late 70's.

And I would also like to restate my opinion that Porsche wastes more money on continuing development of that rear engine hunk of crap each year than they have in the Cayenne. The need to retire the 911 rear engine concept an move on.

Luke

[quote]Originally posted by Greg Hammond:
<strong>
makes $1.5 million a year wants to take their $85,000 Cayenne, or $140,000 Lamborghini, or $70,000 Hummer, or $55,000 BMW X5 offroad - them let em!

Greg</strong><hr></blockquote>
I saw a convertible Bentley ( a newer model) in the snow, completely covered in mud the other day. I just wanted to share that.

felonious shitake

I think it's sad that so many people want station wagons and are afraid to admit it. It's caused the automakers to nueter the SUV forum to pointlessness. My cherokee could sling mud, tow, rock crawl, haul a family across the country, rip stumps out with a chain around the hitch, all effortlessly and in comfort. Now we have the libert to replace it. If you don't think the libertey is a direct replacement look at U.K. version it's called a Cherokee. Point of rant is that Porsche has only released another car that would better serve it's potentioal owners if it was a foot lower and labled a station wagon, like the subaru's (great cars!). People looked at vehicles like the cherokee and said, gee, I like the utility, and the all wheel drive saftey, now if it was just, quieter,handeled better, rode smoother, was easier to get into..., you know...if it was more like a car. Now there are nearly no suv's that can truly claim they are not lifted station wagon's and the porsche isn't one of them. I applaud the forward movement but detest the genere.