Ken

I'm trying to find out if these bars will actually work. Has anyone with an early car successfully performed this upgrade? As far as I know, I will definately need to replace the inner bushing holders(circlips) because the stock ones aren't large enough. Does anyone know about how the bar will fit into the mounts on the a-arm. The early mounts are different and I won't be able to use the bushings that would regualarly come with the 968 bar. I know that the end of the bar is tapered, so perhaps it will still fit in an early bushing. Or maybe I just have to bore out the early bushing alittle and fit it. It the bar correctly shaped to do this though? Thanks for any help.

Waterguy

You might want to check out this link: <a href="http://www.blaszakprecision.com/Control_Arms.html" target="_blank">Control Arm Failures</a>

Apparently, the early steel control arms will fail if too large a sway bar is used. Marcus Blaszak will be pleased to sell you a strengthened control arm to prevent this failure.

I believe the bar-end bushings are the same for all sway bar diameters.

Skip

You have to hog/bore (why isn't it "boar" ) out the early bushing to approximately 20mm to fit the 30mm bar. The ends are tapered from 30mm to ~21mm, and they will work with the original end clamps and bushings with this modification. [please wait till you have the bar in hand to measure - this is from memory... risky with me. You want the fit to be very tight]

Regarding strength; it depends on the use, but yes, they weren't designed for that amount of load. There are two options - have a plate welded to the top (and bottom) of the arm, or modify the arm to use a late style drop-link. Markus does both of these mods, I have the latter. Using the later drop links allows you to not only use the proper bushing, but also the Racer's Edge Delrin bushing inserts.

Ken

Well shoot. I plan on using them pretty rough and I wouldn't want to take a chance on one breaking. Will an upgrade to a smaller size reduce the stress. Perhaps the 28mm Turbo S bar? I'm not looking to spend alot of money so that might be an option. Thanks for the info guys.

Skip

Ken, they're used on a great many early cars with unmodified steel arms with no problems. It's just something to be aware of, and to check/inspect for. If you are just talking autocross, then there's little risk. Any upgrade past the originally offered 23mm (M404, sport) would require this consideration.

Now, to mitigate the problem without reinforcing the arm, you could use the approach I have. My steel arm is simply drilled to accept the late drop links. The late drop links use rubber washer bushings on the upper and lower attaching point to the control arm. Cut some replacement bushings down to size and you significantly reduce the load on the arm at that point. There still lies the issue of strengthening the whole arm, but this is an easy step to help things out. I have the otherwise reinforced Blaszak steel arms, but with the late drop links and the 30mm sway bar with Delrin bushings - no problems yet, but I do keep my good eye on them.

Good Luck!

HY M8NC

Well Dammit-
I didn't want to learn that my control arms were in jeopardy this morning. Thanks guys.

Ken, I have the front and rear bars off of an '87 951 on my early car. Don't quote me, but I think they are 27mm and 18mm-I've got it written down at home, the memory fogs. They are pretty stiff on the lighter early car. I still see some "plow" into corners with the car, maybe the rear needs to be larger-I'll leave that up to the professional set-up guy's on the board.

I have had no problems with this set-up, although it is only 3000 miles old. I put all new bushings on the car when I did this, and re-used all of my mounts. The bar end mounts are a sonofabitch to replace. I did have to slightly drill them out as Skip suggested, it still took me 5-10 minutes to feed each one on to the end of the bar. The price of $150 for the whole mod is also spinning in my head. Look at Parts Heaven (www.partsheaven.com), or a local dismantler for some used turbo bars-if they don't do what you want, sell them and go up.

Skip

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by HY M8NC:
<strong>Well Dammit-
I didn't want to learn that my control arms were in jeopardy this morning. Thanks guys.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">I wouldn't be too concerned if you do not track the car - and even then, it's just something to watch out for. I don't want to see folks getting frantic about failing steel arms simply because they have upgraded bars. Luckily, metal shows sign of wear much better than aluminum - check for signs of damage at any time you feel the "envelope" was opened.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica"><strong> it still took me 5-10 minutes to feed each one on to the end of the bar.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">To fit the rubber over the bar? If so, use silicone spray/lube or dishwashing soap (liquid). Slips right on.

Skip

944togo

I'm looking to do the same thing on an 83-944 that will see track time. I'd think the steel arms would be stronger than the aluminum. Does anyone have a photo or diagram of a reinforced steel arm since I do my own welding?

I've put the larger Turbo bars off an 89 on my 84 944, and the tapered ends of the front bar slipped in the original bushings fairly easy using some dish soap. It came with good center bushings so didn't try using the original ones.

Ken

HY M8NC,
It's good to know using bigger bars is possible. I'll be poking around the Hersey Swapmeet this weekend looking for a good deal on a used set of swaybars. I was hoping to not cause any understeer with whatever bars I end up with. As my car is set up currently, I don't experience any understeer. My car acts neutral until I use the throttle to induce oversteer. Perhaps this is just my driving style. I guess the fun will be finding a setup I like!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by Skip:
<strong> I don't want to see folks getting frantic about failing steel arms simply because they have upgraded bars. Luckily, metal shows sign of wear much better than aluminum - check for signs of damage at any time you feel the "envelope" was opened.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Ok, that makes me feel better about it. I'll be sure to add checking the sway bar mounts to my checklist for prepping the car for autocross. Plus, the new early A-arms are only $50 a piece. So if they get ruined, I'm not out alot of cash.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Does anyone have a photo or diagram of a reinforced steel arm since I do my own welding? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Check the link to the Blasak page. It's got a pic of the reinforced arm.

Thanks guys! <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />

Skip

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by Ken:
<strong> Plus, the new early A-arms are only $50 a piece. So if they get ruined, I'm not out alot of cash.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Sorry, my friend - they are much less than that even.

Skip

adrial

The crash damage to your car for a failed A-arm is quite a bit more than $50 most likely...

Skip, if the A-arm fails as you say...how exactly will it fail? snap in half? or will the swaybar mount break?

Ken

My guess is the bolts for the sway bar mount would go first. If not, it seems that the arm would begin to bend under the addition stress put on it. I don't think that it would fail catastrophically without giving any warning first(like the aluminum might). I'm sure Skip will chime in with some good info. Thanks Skip!

Skip

Crashing is not allowed without prior approval - you know that! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

Well, I've never seen one fail - but, I would assume the sway mount would rip out... not too scary. However, if the mount placed too much stress on the mounts I suppose there's a chance it could break across that area... hard to believe it would break completely - maybe more of a bend to uselessnessville.

Maybe contact Markus - he seems to know the most about this, and he does the arms - he did mine. The site only speaks to the issue - the bulk of the problems he's concerned with are with cast control arms and the ball joint issues... that is for sure real.

Skip

JJG

Skip,
Do you have a picture of the early-to-late drop-link conversion? I just went thru the end bushing boring/cussing session (most of the cussing occurred before I decided to "hog" them out) for my 30mm bars which are mounted to stock early end mounts. Drop links would be much better and I can't get delrin bushings for the stock end mounts.

We (944-spec racers) have typically been getting the Weltmeister 30mm sway from you. I think I'm the only one in SoCal that has what I'm guessing is the 968 M030 front bar which has a totally different geometry than the Welt bars.

seb928s

I'm using right now early control arms with the stock 24mm sway bar with the drop links and everything. I had to cut about 2mm out of the bottom bushing for the sway bar to get the nut on the top side. So far it's pretty good but I know I don't have a big sway bar it's the stock 24mm one on the 86 951.