MAF confusion....how do I choose??
03-09-2002, 12:40 AM
#46
Nordschleife Master
[quote]Originally posted by ribs:
<strong>
I personally don't see a MAF as a worthwhile upgrade until you start talking about turbo upgrades. </strong><hr></blockquote>
I completely agree with you Ribs. The kkk 26's can't even flow enough air as it is. Why feed em' more?
<strong>
I personally don't see a MAF as a worthwhile upgrade until you start talking about turbo upgrades. </strong><hr></blockquote>
I completely agree with you Ribs. The kkk 26's can't even flow enough air as it is. Why feed em' more?
03-09-2002, 02:33 PM
#47
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You guys have to look at more than peak HP numbers. Look at any of the MAF vs non-MAF dyno charts on our website and you will see that you also get a reduction in lag time and an overal gain from idle to redline. Personally I would much rather have 10 HP accross the board then say 30 only at redline.
03-09-2002, 02:49 PM
#48
Nordschleife Master
[quote]Originally posted by Huntley Racing:
<strong>You guys have to look at more than peak HP numbersPersonally I would much rather have 10 HP accross the board then say 30 only at redline.</strong><hr></blockquote>
The keyword in our discussion was "worthwhile" Derrek. Im not looking at hp gains. A smoother idle doesn't justify your $1500 price tag. <img src="graemlins/nono.gif" border="0" alt="[nono]" />
Besides 99% of hte power gain is the increased boost.
on a larger turbo, the increase air flow would be worthwhile.
<strong>You guys have to look at more than peak HP numbersPersonally I would much rather have 10 HP accross the board then say 30 only at redline.</strong><hr></blockquote>
The keyword in our discussion was "worthwhile" Derrek. Im not looking at hp gains. A smoother idle doesn't justify your $1500 price tag. <img src="graemlins/nono.gif" border="0" alt="[nono]" />
Besides 99% of hte power gain is the increased boost.
on a larger turbo, the increase air flow would be worthwhile.
03-09-2002, 02:59 PM
#49
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I beg to differ with the horsepower benefits of a MAF conversion. My basline HP (using a g-tech pro) was 182 rwhp. Using the standard correction factor for engine power of 17%, that equates to
+ - 220hp, pretty darn close to the 217 rating. After my APE MAF conversion (running 18 psi)I saw
263 rwhp ( about 317 HP at the engine ) again pretty darn close to the 310 HP advertised by APE @ 15psi. I feel that the MAF conversion is just a logical progression towards building power, I always feel that it is best to exploit what is there already. Changing out the K26 before even doing a MAF is not progress. It is best to build a solid foundation to support an even larger turbo. Letting the engine breathe correctly is what benefits a turbo whether small or large. I've
always learned that an engine should breathe better before any forced induction is installed or upgraded in the 951's case. The K26 can flow more than the stock set up allows. After some more stepping-stone mods if you will, I will be upgrading to a larger Garret ball bearing turbo.
+ - 220hp, pretty darn close to the 217 rating. After my APE MAF conversion (running 18 psi)I saw
263 rwhp ( about 317 HP at the engine ) again pretty darn close to the 310 HP advertised by APE @ 15psi. I feel that the MAF conversion is just a logical progression towards building power, I always feel that it is best to exploit what is there already. Changing out the K26 before even doing a MAF is not progress. It is best to build a solid foundation to support an even larger turbo. Letting the engine breathe correctly is what benefits a turbo whether small or large. I've
always learned that an engine should breathe better before any forced induction is installed or upgraded in the 951's case. The K26 can flow more than the stock set up allows. After some more stepping-stone mods if you will, I will be upgrading to a larger Garret ball bearing turbo.
03-09-2002, 03:21 PM
#50
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Luke, did you look at the dyno charts? Many of you have the performance calculating software, punch in the numbers for an MAF car with it's hjuge average HP gains vs a chipped car. We are talking a full second off the 0-60 times and even more in the 1/4 mile. This is not a small gain. But everyone has thier threshold for HP/$. <img src="graemlins/burnout.gif" border="0" alt="[burnout]" />
03-09-2002, 04:19 PM
#51
Nordschleife Master
"Most turbo cars pick up 2 PSI of boost without any other change."
yeah this is why there is a difference in dyno charts. A jetted and chipped S will make 270 at the wheels. With your $1500 MAF on that car it, how much more will it put to the wheels? Would you say a smoother idle and 10hp would justify $1500?
[quote]Originally posted by Huntley Racing:
<strong>Many of you have the performance calculating software, punch in the numbers for an MAF car with it's huge average HP gains vs a chipped car. We are talking a full second off the 0-60 times and even more in the 1/4 mile. <img src="graemlins/burnout.gif" border="0" alt="[burnout]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>
IS THIS how you get all your performance figures?
yeah this is why there is a difference in dyno charts. A jetted and chipped S will make 270 at the wheels. With your $1500 MAF on that car it, how much more will it put to the wheels? Would you say a smoother idle and 10hp would justify $1500?
[quote]Originally posted by Huntley Racing:
<strong>Many of you have the performance calculating software, punch in the numbers for an MAF car with it's huge average HP gains vs a chipped car. We are talking a full second off the 0-60 times and even more in the 1/4 mile. <img src="graemlins/burnout.gif" border="0" alt="[burnout]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>
IS THIS how you get all your performance figures?
03-09-2002, 04:30 PM
#53
John and Derrek, I was wondering if there was going to be the expert, unbiased witness observing the testing and reporting the results? I would hate to see the testing blurred by how the tests were performed and how the results were presented.
I for one am really looking forward to this test. The facts speak louder then words.
I for one am really looking forward to this test. The facts speak louder then words.
03-10-2002, 12:08 AM
#54
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Have the clouds parted and the angels started singing? Thaey must have!
I will Back Derrek 100% on the maf conversion thing. YOur not going to get the HP or the TQ, or the smooth running your car is capable of, simply by running chips, using a vendors hacked up barn door conversion kit...its not going to happen...
Between Derrek, Myself and Tim, your talking to a few guys that have tried everything on the planet to extract that extra HP from the cars we drive.
Unless you have installed the MAF kits (preferably a tunable one) and can speak from direct experience...maybe you should get the facts first, then type all you want.
No, I'm not licking Derreks sack, but its lame the way the MAF conversions get a bad rap!
More air, more fuel...what do you get....?
I will Back Derrek 100% on the maf conversion thing. YOur not going to get the HP or the TQ, or the smooth running your car is capable of, simply by running chips, using a vendors hacked up barn door conversion kit...its not going to happen...
Between Derrek, Myself and Tim, your talking to a few guys that have tried everything on the planet to extract that extra HP from the cars we drive.
Unless you have installed the MAF kits (preferably a tunable one) and can speak from direct experience...maybe you should get the facts first, then type all you want.
No, I'm not licking Derreks sack, but its lame the way the MAF conversions get a bad rap!
More air, more fuel...what do you get....?
03-10-2002, 12:09 AM
#55
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Have the clouds parted and the angels started singing? Thaey must have!
I will Back Derrek 100% on the maf conversion thing. YOur not going to get the HP or the TQ, or the smooth running your car is capable of, simply by running chips, using a vendors hacked up barn door conversion kit...its not going to happen...
Between Derrek, Myself and Tim, your talking to a few guys that have tried everything on the planet to extract that extra HP from the cars we drive.
Unless you have installed the MAF kits (preferably a tunable one) and can speak from direct experience...maybe you should get the facts first, then type all you want.
No, I'm not licking Derreks sack, but its lame the way the MAF conversions get a bad rap!
More air, more fuel...what do you get....?
I will Back Derrek 100% on the maf conversion thing. YOur not going to get the HP or the TQ, or the smooth running your car is capable of, simply by running chips, using a vendors hacked up barn door conversion kit...its not going to happen...
Between Derrek, Myself and Tim, your talking to a few guys that have tried everything on the planet to extract that extra HP from the cars we drive.
Unless you have installed the MAF kits (preferably a tunable one) and can speak from direct experience...maybe you should get the facts first, then type all you want.
No, I'm not licking Derreks sack, but its lame the way the MAF conversions get a bad rap!
More air, more fuel...what do you get....?
03-10-2002, 12:17 AM
#56
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Beab951,
I'm hoping like hell that more than just results come from this session...I'm hoping that HR and SFR can put a few stitches in the wounds and move on...I've said before and I'll say again..
There is a lot to be gained by the P car people when two top tuners are with spitting distance and working towards building better cars , than if we continuie to bicker.
Yes, if this thing happens there will be more than a few people there to witness..Its going to be an SFR Pizza day, so be assured you will get many posts :-)
Derrek, alot of water has flowed under our bridge, instead of boring the folkes on the list...lets do something else...I propose a cup of coffe and conversation...to work it out...or we could do a little back alley bootshine shine on each other, yes, we have our day in courts, we have our bitterness, lets kick the **** out of each other and call it a day...no one is winning here.
I'm hoping like hell that more than just results come from this session...I'm hoping that HR and SFR can put a few stitches in the wounds and move on...I've said before and I'll say again..
There is a lot to be gained by the P car people when two top tuners are with spitting distance and working towards building better cars , than if we continuie to bicker.
Yes, if this thing happens there will be more than a few people there to witness..Its going to be an SFR Pizza day, so be assured you will get many posts :-)
Derrek, alot of water has flowed under our bridge, instead of boring the folkes on the list...lets do something else...I propose a cup of coffe and conversation...to work it out...or we could do a little back alley bootshine shine on each other, yes, we have our day in courts, we have our bitterness, lets kick the **** out of each other and call it a day...no one is winning here.
03-10-2002, 12:30 AM
#57
Nordschleife Master
[quote]Originally posted by John Anderson:
<strong>No, I'm not licking Derreks sack, but its lame the way the MAF conversions get a bad rap!
</strong><hr></blockquote>
hehe. Interesting choice of words there! Well John, SFR also sells a $1500 MAF so I would expect to hear the same from you. But the original question was wether or not a MAF conversion on a k26 equiped car was "worthwhile". I would certainly hope that for $1500 you should AT LEAST see a smooth idle.
But the truth is, you can fab. your own makeshift MAF kit out of explorer parts or even buy units that are comparable to your's for less than half the price! <img src="graemlins/cussing.gif" border="0" alt="[grrrrrrr]" /> (not really angry. just unbeleivably dissapointed)
Derrek's other claim was that a MAF equiped 951 would drop a full second in a 0-60 run. A chipped 951 runs 5.4 or whatever w/o a MAF. This is completely reasonable. I myself have knocked off 5.4's w/o chips!!! So with a MAF Derrek is claiming 4.4 sec's to 60!?! phhhhhhh. and his other claim was that you'd knock off more than a full second in the 1/4 mile!!! Well once again. I know many chipped non MAF car's that run 13.5's all day long. You're telling me that a MAF car will run a lower time than a 12.5. <img src="graemlins/cussing.gif" border="0" alt="[grrrrrrr]" /> That's about as false as any advertising can get! what sort of performance "calculator" are YOU using?
.
So you can back each other since you sell an EXTREMELY similar product (refernce to the MAF). The irony of your arguments is that , the products of SFR and HUNTLEY are so similar that you are more/less selling customer serivce. BY arguing over the "tiny" differnces in your MAF's and other similar products you are COMPLETELY missing the point and your selling point. You WILL lose customers.
.
BTW when you sell a turbo and tell the buyer that he will be shipped a modified water temp. sending unit, send it! Dont wait until he has to email you to find out where it is and then tell him it's on back order! It's not like you did'nt have almost 2 months to tell me. <img src="graemlins/cussing.gif" border="0" alt="[grrrrrrr]" /> Same deal with the CORE CHARGE. There is no core charge listed on your site for your turbo's! How dare you try to slip that in there!
<strong>No, I'm not licking Derreks sack, but its lame the way the MAF conversions get a bad rap!
</strong><hr></blockquote>
hehe. Interesting choice of words there! Well John, SFR also sells a $1500 MAF so I would expect to hear the same from you. But the original question was wether or not a MAF conversion on a k26 equiped car was "worthwhile". I would certainly hope that for $1500 you should AT LEAST see a smooth idle.
But the truth is, you can fab. your own makeshift MAF kit out of explorer parts or even buy units that are comparable to your's for less than half the price! <img src="graemlins/cussing.gif" border="0" alt="[grrrrrrr]" /> (not really angry. just unbeleivably dissapointed)Derrek's other claim was that a MAF equiped 951 would drop a full second in a 0-60 run. A chipped 951 runs 5.4 or whatever w/o a MAF. This is completely reasonable. I myself have knocked off 5.4's w/o chips!!! So with a MAF Derrek is claiming 4.4 sec's to 60!?! phhhhhhh. and his other claim was that you'd knock off more than a full second in the 1/4 mile!!! Well once again. I know many chipped non MAF car's that run 13.5's all day long. You're telling me that a MAF car will run a lower time than a 12.5. <img src="graemlins/cussing.gif" border="0" alt="[grrrrrrr]" /> That's about as false as any advertising can get! what sort of performance "calculator" are YOU using?
.
So you can back each other since you sell an EXTREMELY similar product (refernce to the MAF). The irony of your arguments is that , the products of SFR and HUNTLEY are so similar that you are more/less selling customer serivce. BY arguing over the "tiny" differnces in your MAF's and other similar products you are COMPLETELY missing the point and your selling point. You WILL lose customers.
.
BTW when you sell a turbo and tell the buyer that he will be shipped a modified water temp. sending unit, send it! Dont wait until he has to email you to find out where it is and then tell him it's on back order! It's not like you did'nt have almost 2 months to tell me. <img src="graemlins/cussing.gif" border="0" alt="[grrrrrrr]" /> Same deal with the CORE CHARGE. There is no core charge listed on your site for your turbo's! How dare you try to slip that in there!
03-10-2002, 01:07 AM
#58
There is a lot to be gained by the P car people when two top tuners are with spitting distance and working towards building better cars , than if we continuie to bicker.
Your words ring true.
Food, drink and fair competition to better better the breed...sound like event I would go to!
My $0.02 All Modifications have risks...period!! If you want to run stock then do so, Porsche did a wonderfull job of insuring that the car run in almost any enviroment. I for one just what to understand the modifications risk.
Your words ring true.
Food, drink and fair competition to better better the breed...sound like event I would go to!
My $0.02 All Modifications have risks...period!! If you want to run stock then do so, Porsche did a wonderfull job of insuring that the car run in almost any enviroment. I for one just what to understand the modifications risk.
03-10-2002, 01:35 AM
#59
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Luke,
We let people know when they call that there is a core charge. We will list it on our website when we have the time. You didnt end up paying the core charge anyways;^)
As far as the temp sender goes.... It is true you had to wait for them to come in on backorder. However, you also got the temp sender and turbo for $850 bucks! This really is a smoking deal considering other shops sell the smae sort of turbo for $1300+! You also didnt get a mass-produced turbo that was sitting on the shelf collecing dust:^). It was custom built to the specs we talked about on the phone. My point is that you got a great turbo, for a great price.
Tim
86 951
<a href="http://www.speedforceracing.com" target="_blank">http://www.speedforceracing.com</a>
We let people know when they call that there is a core charge. We will list it on our website when we have the time. You didnt end up paying the core charge anyways;^)
As far as the temp sender goes.... It is true you had to wait for them to come in on backorder. However, you also got the temp sender and turbo for $850 bucks! This really is a smoking deal considering other shops sell the smae sort of turbo for $1300+! You also didnt get a mass-produced turbo that was sitting on the shelf collecing dust:^). It was custom built to the specs we talked about on the phone. My point is that you got a great turbo, for a great price.
Tim
86 951
<a href="http://www.speedforceracing.com" target="_blank">http://www.speedforceracing.com</a>