MAF confusion....how do I choose??
03-06-2002 | 04:09 PM
#31
Nordschleife Master
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 5,454
Likes: 1
From: Minneapolis MN
John and Tim,
I want to thank you for answering that comment with such poise respectability. That speaks volumes about your characters'. Congrats' with you business and setups!
Take it easy,
LUKE
I want to thank you for answering that comment with such poise respectability. That speaks volumes about your characters'. Congrats' with you business and setups!
Take it easy,
LUKE
03-06-2002 | 11:27 PM
#32
Racer
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 446
Likes: 0
From: San Diego, CA
OK lets take a 951 that has regular chips, nothing custom, and say a big turbo and one of YOUR MAF kits and tune it at say 18 PSI at the Dyno Shop with the ARC2-A and then we will swap it out with the ARC2-HR-R2 and do the same. We will then post the results for all to see, up for it? No jabs or insults please as I have given you an open chalange on your turf not mine. If I am wrong then it will show it in the results. I am available M-F 8am-5pm except the 12th at 1:00pm.
03-06-2002 | 11:42 PM
#34
Burning Brakes
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,084
Likes: 0
From: San Diego
Derrek, this sounds great, and even fun :-) Maybe once and for all, we can clear this issue. You and I have our spats...take jabs, but there is an underlying respect for each other and its important that the folkes on the various lists know that.
Back to the challenge, its agreed, lets do it. I'll have one of my SO CAL PIZZA events based on this event. Its important that we show real results and quit the hype. I'd be happy to do this with you. Lets get a date planned :-)
Lets also clear the rules for the event. Do we get to use our own MAF kit? We both use your (auto Athority) chips, as they are a standard to remove the boost protection. What else?
Take Care!
Back to the challenge, its agreed, lets do it. I'll have one of my SO CAL PIZZA events based on this event. Its important that we show real results and quit the hype. I'd be happy to do this with you. Lets get a date planned :-)
Lets also clear the rules for the event. Do we get to use our own MAF kit? We both use your (auto Athority) chips, as they are a standard to remove the boost protection. What else?
Take Care!
03-07-2002 | 01:37 PM
#38
Racer
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 446
Likes: 0
From: San Diego, CA
I have a set of APE chips in a box for a 28 pin car. Again you provide the car, the MAF, the dyno time, and I will bring a box of 1995 APE chips. You install your ARC2-A with say blade connectors and I will bring an ARC2-HR-R2 with the same connectors to make the swap fast and easy. The car should be set-up to run say 17-18 PSI or so (since the 'problem' is worse at higher boost). Also if you want I will bring a set of HR-Chips over too to see how much morepower they make than APE.
03-07-2002 | 04:31 PM
#39
Racer
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 363
Likes: 0
From: Ga
damn i wish i could attend this little shindig. i hope this will put some things to rest. gool luck to both, and guys just remember its just a car.(oops did i just say just a car?....went to look outside for any heavy cloud cover..whew no lightning today)
it doesnt matter who wins... ok it does but the trick is handling the losing
it doesnt matter who wins... ok it does but the trick is handling the losing
03-08-2002 | 02:25 AM
#41
Banned
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,635
Likes: 0
From: San Diego
Derrek,
We will dyno our test car with our MAF kit and our own chips. You can then put your chips and MAF on our test car. Afterall, you are claiming that the ARC2 we are using has midrange fuel issues and a lean out at the top-end. We will see.
Tim
86 951
<a href="http://www.speedforceracing.com" target="_blank">http://www.speedforceracing.com</a>
We will dyno our test car with our MAF kit and our own chips. You can then put your chips and MAF on our test car. Afterall, you are claiming that the ARC2 we are using has midrange fuel issues and a lean out at the top-end. We will see.
Tim
86 951
<a href="http://www.speedforceracing.com" target="_blank">http://www.speedforceracing.com</a>
03-08-2002 | 02:49 PM
#43
Burning Brakes
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,084
Likes: 0
From: San Diego
I'd like to debut our chips as well. Lets say the end of the month...I have not talked it over with Tim, but if it fits his schedual, its good for me, how about you Derrek? I think this started as a bickering match, but quickly its turning into something that can and should be very productive :-)
03-08-2002 | 07:46 PM
#44
Thread Starter
Racer
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 420
Likes: 0
From: Princeton, NJ
Well, this thread has certainly exceeded my original expectations for responses. It looks like there will be some excellent follow-up on the MAF options out there.
OK, just to stir up things a little more, I will pose the question: "Do I really need a MAF conversion for my '86 951?"
I spoke with my local race prep shop (the owner has a 951) to get their opinion on the MAF conversion. They said that they used to be strong advocates for the MAF kits. However, after working on a few cars, they started seeing "driveability" problems for cars that were on the street. Specifically, he mentioned that the MAF sensor was almost ~too~ sensitive, and it was providing signals that were changing very quickly to the DME. The result was uneven engine operation and "bucking" during normal stop-and-go traffic. Although more restrictive, they felt that the stock "barn door" provided a smoother input signal to the DME.
I was also taking a look at the APE (Autothority) Stage II chips, and they claim a 48 HP gain over stock. By my calculations that would take a stock '86 851 from 217 HP up to 265 HP by using higher boost levels. At this point that would be sufficient power for my needs, and I would get the excellent "driveability" of the original car.
Thoughts and comments please...
OK, just to stir up things a little more, I will pose the question: "Do I really need a MAF conversion for my '86 951?"
I spoke with my local race prep shop (the owner has a 951) to get their opinion on the MAF conversion. They said that they used to be strong advocates for the MAF kits. However, after working on a few cars, they started seeing "driveability" problems for cars that were on the street. Specifically, he mentioned that the MAF sensor was almost ~too~ sensitive, and it was providing signals that were changing very quickly to the DME. The result was uneven engine operation and "bucking" during normal stop-and-go traffic. Although more restrictive, they felt that the stock "barn door" provided a smoother input signal to the DME.
I was also taking a look at the APE (Autothority) Stage II chips, and they claim a 48 HP gain over stock. By my calculations that would take a stock '86 851 from 217 HP up to 265 HP by using higher boost levels. At this point that would be sufficient power for my needs, and I would get the excellent "driveability" of the original car.
Thoughts and comments please...
03-08-2002 | 08:25 PM
#45
Rennlist Member
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 1,363
Likes: 0
From: Crofton, MD
[quote]Originally posted by tt9714:
<strong>Well, this thread has certainly exceeded my original expectations for responses. It looks like there will be some excellent follow-up on the MAF options out there.
OK, just to stir up things a little more, I will pose the question: "Do I really need a MAF conversion for my '86 951?"
I spoke with my local race prep shop (the owner has a 951) to get their opinion on the MAF conversion. They said that they used to be strong advocates for the MAF kits. However, after working on a few cars, they started seeing "driveability" problems for cars that were on the street. Specifically, he mentioned that the MAF sensor was almost ~too~ sensitive, and it was providing signals that were changing very quickly to the DME. The result was uneven engine operation and "bucking" during normal stop-and-go traffic. Although more restrictive, they felt that the stock "barn door" provided a smoother input signal to the DME.
I was also taking a look at the APE (Autothority) Stage II chips, and they claim a 48 HP gain over stock. By my calculations that would take a stock '86 851 from 217 HP up to 265 HP by using higher boost levels. At this point that would be sufficient power for my needs, and I would get the excellent "driveability" of the original car.
Thoughts and comments please...</strong><hr></blockquote>
I personally don't see a MAF as a worthwhile upgrade until you start talking about turbo upgrades. The stock intake and exhaust systems are not nearly as much of a bottle neck on these cars as they are on other cars, so you won't see much gain from doing these items (MAF, test pipe, cat back...maybe 25 HP and better throttle and turbo response over just chips) until you start with the turbo upgrades, which you are going to need more CFM of flow into and out of the motor, and the stock plumbing (and air meter) become a restriction. At that point (running a larger turbo) replacing your stock plumbing with girthier tubes and a MAF will probably open up another 50 HP over the stock systems, and allow the power difference to grow proportionately for larger turbos, bore and stroke, etc., so you would eventually see over 100 HP difference. Thats my take on it anyways.
<strong>Well, this thread has certainly exceeded my original expectations for responses. It looks like there will be some excellent follow-up on the MAF options out there.
OK, just to stir up things a little more, I will pose the question: "Do I really need a MAF conversion for my '86 951?"
I spoke with my local race prep shop (the owner has a 951) to get their opinion on the MAF conversion. They said that they used to be strong advocates for the MAF kits. However, after working on a few cars, they started seeing "driveability" problems for cars that were on the street. Specifically, he mentioned that the MAF sensor was almost ~too~ sensitive, and it was providing signals that were changing very quickly to the DME. The result was uneven engine operation and "bucking" during normal stop-and-go traffic. Although more restrictive, they felt that the stock "barn door" provided a smoother input signal to the DME.
I was also taking a look at the APE (Autothority) Stage II chips, and they claim a 48 HP gain over stock. By my calculations that would take a stock '86 851 from 217 HP up to 265 HP by using higher boost levels. At this point that would be sufficient power for my needs, and I would get the excellent "driveability" of the original car.
Thoughts and comments please...</strong><hr></blockquote>
I personally don't see a MAF as a worthwhile upgrade until you start talking about turbo upgrades. The stock intake and exhaust systems are not nearly as much of a bottle neck on these cars as they are on other cars, so you won't see much gain from doing these items (MAF, test pipe, cat back...maybe 25 HP and better throttle and turbo response over just chips) until you start with the turbo upgrades, which you are going to need more CFM of flow into and out of the motor, and the stock plumbing (and air meter) become a restriction. At that point (running a larger turbo) replacing your stock plumbing with girthier tubes and a MAF will probably open up another 50 HP over the stock systems, and allow the power difference to grow proportionately for larger turbos, bore and stroke, etc., so you would eventually see over 100 HP difference. Thats my take on it anyways.