OT: Compact "tuning"? Asian versus German
09-23-2002 | 05:54 PM
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OT: Compact "tuning"? Asian versus German
OK, I know the subject of "ricers" has been brought up over and over again, and I know most folks on the list think that the "tuner" cars are usually BS. What I want to know is why does it seem like the whole compact "tuning" culture revolves around Asian models. I recall way back when that the hot cars to hop up where GTIs and Corrados and the like, but a big tuner culture like the one for current compacts never evolved for Europen cars, what gives?
Edit A big "tuner" culture for European cars never really materialized in the US that is. Or at least not like the one that exists for Hondas and the like now.
Edit A big "tuner" culture for European cars never really materialized in the US that is. Or at least not like the one that exists for Hondas and the like now.
09-23-2002 | 06:18 PM
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Kind of OT response but just when did they hijack the word "tune" to mean bolting on tons of crap? To me tuning has always meant adjusting what is already there, not replacing everything and bolting on turbos, etc. At least it has always mant that until the "import scene" materialized. Shouldn't these "tuner" outfits be called speed shops or something? Why'd they have to screw up a perfectly good word? <img src="confused.gif" border="0">
09-23-2002 | 06:31 PM
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***CAN YOU SAY....VTEC?***
I am,and will be forever,a german marque fan. my love of the P car is as strong as it ever was.
however....
After moving my business a year ago next door to what is apparently THE import pro-race (drag/roadrace) shop in the country,i'm quite frankly mind-blown by the technology swirling around these cars.
Before you say it,i'm not just talking about their "set-on-kill",900hp 1.8 litre alcohol burning hand grendades...i've seen those in their shop. I'm talking about the intense technology coming outa Japan these days.
While "VTEC" is old news,until you've experienced it first hand in a mildy modified..uh,Honda? It really is worth the price of admission...REALLY cool stuff. It pails in comparison to whats coming outa Japan these days. the sad truth is that German/American efforts are falling WAY behind.
Go out right now,buy an import tuner mag,just for the hell of it....we're hurtin people!
It makes no sense to turn a blind eye to it,it's real and it's in our faces...
Just my opinion.
I am,and will be forever,a german marque fan. my love of the P car is as strong as it ever was.
however....
After moving my business a year ago next door to what is apparently THE import pro-race (drag/roadrace) shop in the country,i'm quite frankly mind-blown by the technology swirling around these cars.
Before you say it,i'm not just talking about their "set-on-kill",900hp 1.8 litre alcohol burning hand grendades...i've seen those in their shop. I'm talking about the intense technology coming outa Japan these days.
While "VTEC" is old news,until you've experienced it first hand in a mildy modified..uh,Honda? It really is worth the price of admission...REALLY cool stuff. It pails in comparison to whats coming outa Japan these days. the sad truth is that German/American efforts are falling WAY behind.
Go out right now,buy an import tuner mag,just for the hell of it....we're hurtin people!
It makes no sense to turn a blind eye to it,it's real and it's in our faces...
Just my opinion.
09-23-2002 | 07:02 PM
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From: Toronto
Yeah, I agree. As a parallel, the Japanese killed the British bike industry 30 years ago with superior design and quality, and that was a good thing. Now they've got their sights on the world car industry and they're gaining fast.
At least they build some of the things over here.
Look at what kind of bikes are produced in the US now. You really have to wonder why a country so big can only produce slightly modernized V-twins based on an archaic design. I don't get it.
Back in the 70s I had to listen to a lot of guys moaning about jap scrap and how inferior they were to British bikes, and that's what a lot of Harley riders still say. You gotta shake your head.
At least they build some of the things over here.
Look at what kind of bikes are produced in the US now. You really have to wonder why a country so big can only produce slightly modernized V-twins based on an archaic design. I don't get it.
Back in the 70s I had to listen to a lot of guys moaning about jap scrap and how inferior they were to British bikes, and that's what a lot of Harley riders still say. You gotta shake your head.
09-23-2002 | 07:31 PM
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From: Houston, TX USA
[quote]Originally posted by AutoXdriver:
<strong>Kind of OT response but just when did they hijack the word "tune" to mean bolting on tons of crap? To me tuning has always meant adjusting what is already there, not replacing everything and bolting on turbos, etc. At least it has always mant that until the "import scene" materialized. Shouldn't these "tuner" outfits be called speed shops or something? Why'd they have to screw up a perfectly good word?
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Well Alan, believe it or not, the expression "tuner" is a German thing. Yep. The Germans were the first to use the expression "tuner" to refer to shops that "bolt on tons of crap" and "replacing everything and bolting on turbos, etc." The expression is actually at least 25 years old or so. I first learned of it in college back when I had to fight a Sabre Tooth Tiger for my meal.
BTW, German cars are imports too. But I know what you mean. I get a kick out of young Asian kids who think they invented the "import scene."
<img src="graemlins/roflmao.gif" border="0" alt="[hiha]" />
<strong>Kind of OT response but just when did they hijack the word "tune" to mean bolting on tons of crap? To me tuning has always meant adjusting what is already there, not replacing everything and bolting on turbos, etc. At least it has always mant that until the "import scene" materialized. Shouldn't these "tuner" outfits be called speed shops or something? Why'd they have to screw up a perfectly good word?
</strong><hr></blockquote>Well Alan, believe it or not, the expression "tuner" is a German thing. Yep. The Germans were the first to use the expression "tuner" to refer to shops that "bolt on tons of crap" and "replacing everything and bolting on turbos, etc." The expression is actually at least 25 years old or so. I first learned of it in college back when I had to fight a Sabre Tooth Tiger for my meal.
BTW, German cars are imports too. But I know what you mean. I get a kick out of young Asian kids who think they invented the "import scene."
<img src="graemlins/roflmao.gif" border="0" alt="[hiha]" />
09-23-2002 | 08:02 PM
#7
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From: Utica Michigan
Hmm, I think it is just younger generations response to what cars are plentifull and affordable. When I was a kid. I modified a 76 nova, and a 70 mach 1.. They were cheap to buy and own. Like in the 800 dollar range.. THere are a ton of japanese cars laying around at that price. or cheaper..well todays 1500 dollar range.. Plus peer pressure.. My 2 cents.
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09-23-2002 | 08:02 PM
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From: Houston, TX USA
[quote]Originally posted by Manning:
<strong>OK, I know the subject of "ricers" has been brought up over and over again, and I know most folks on the list think that the "tuner" cars are usually BS. What I want to know is why does it seem like the whole compact "tuning" culture revolves around Asian models. I recall way back when that the hot cars to hop up where GTIs and Corrados and the like, but a big tuner culture like the one for current compacts never evolved for Europen cars, what gives?</strong><hr></blockquote>
As someone pretty well connected to some pretty active parts of the Nissan enthusiast community, I'll give you a little of what I see, as well as reflect on a little history.
The Japanese seem to be doing a lot more free thinking that the folks in the European community. Don't tell me otherwise. I get so sick of hearing that there's really nothing you can do with an 8v 944, or that if Porsche designed something into these cars, that's the only way to do it or that they are friggin brilliant. What poppycock. For one thing, Jon Milledge builds 185 hp ITS legal 8v engines. This is for a category (SCCA Improved Touring) that basically doesn't allow much beyond balancing, gasket matching ports, and not a whole lot else (well, not major - the difference is in the details).
The Japanese car community will try all sorts of things and often with success. I've found that many of the best tuners know a lot more about the state of the art of turbocharging. I just find a lot of folks here seem to be stuck in a rut. I was SHOCKED to find out that folks here don't seem to do much dyno testing. I can tell you pretty well what to expect from most mods to the Nissan SR20 engine. I know because a lot of folks do a lot of dyno testing. I cannot even find dyno tests for headers for the 8v 944 for crying out loud.
I figured when I bought the 944 to go racing in ITS I would be able to find out all sorts of information and it would be known exactly what does what. I mean, first it's a Porsche and there is a bigger aftermarket than for the SE-R and it's a 20 year old car! No. I know more about how to make power in the SE-R we are developing for ITS than the 944 and the aftermarket is absolutely tiny in comparison.
Perhaps one of the problems in the 944 world is that most of the P-car tuners spend their time and development money on the 911 since there is more money to be had there typically. But, the 951 seems to enjoy an active aftermarket. I don't hear much about anyone using state-of-the-art turbos on them though. Maybe I don't pay enough attention anymore. Anyone with a 951 running one of the Garrett GT turbos? I personally know of at least 3 people running them on the Nissan SR20 engine. One is putting down over 500 hp to the wheels. That's "tuned" 951 territory with 20% less displacement to work with.
Some of it I think it has to do with money. I know of folks who have spent $20-50k on their Nissans, DSMs or Honduhs. When was the last time someone spent that kind of money developing their 8v 944?
There is more of a can-do spirit in the Japanese car circles than in the European car circles it seems. I read all the time here that you cannot do this or that. In the Japanese car circles, a lot of people don't care when you say that. They don't listen, and to their credit, they are often successful.
It's sad to see that the VWs aren't enjoying the same kind of growth. It's there is some places if you know where to look though. One problem with the VWs is the chassis are basically almost 30 years old. They still use the same basic set-up as the old A1 Golf (or did last time I heard). That doesn't lead to much development. Until recently, the Civic (the lowly Civic!) had double wishbone suspension all around!
OK, before anyone sets out to kill me or burn me in effigy (sp?), this is just my honest assessment. I'm certainly not anti-Porsche or anti-European car. I love Porsches and always have. My first cars were European (Ford Capri and A1 Scirocco). I didn't get my first Japanese car until I bought an 86 CRX. That and my ex-wife's 92 Integra made me hate Honduhs. My 91 SE-R is what got me into the Japanese cars. Great car if you ever get to drive one. Stock for stock the 8v 944 has nothing on it (except RWD perhaps if you prefer that - I do). Anyway, this is just my assessment. A lot of folks put down the "rice burners" but that is where the state-of-the-art is.
<strong>OK, I know the subject of "ricers" has been brought up over and over again, and I know most folks on the list think that the "tuner" cars are usually BS. What I want to know is why does it seem like the whole compact "tuning" culture revolves around Asian models. I recall way back when that the hot cars to hop up where GTIs and Corrados and the like, but a big tuner culture like the one for current compacts never evolved for Europen cars, what gives?</strong><hr></blockquote>
As someone pretty well connected to some pretty active parts of the Nissan enthusiast community, I'll give you a little of what I see, as well as reflect on a little history.
The Japanese seem to be doing a lot more free thinking that the folks in the European community. Don't tell me otherwise. I get so sick of hearing that there's really nothing you can do with an 8v 944, or that if Porsche designed something into these cars, that's the only way to do it or that they are friggin brilliant. What poppycock. For one thing, Jon Milledge builds 185 hp ITS legal 8v engines. This is for a category (SCCA Improved Touring) that basically doesn't allow much beyond balancing, gasket matching ports, and not a whole lot else (well, not major - the difference is in the details).
The Japanese car community will try all sorts of things and often with success. I've found that many of the best tuners know a lot more about the state of the art of turbocharging. I just find a lot of folks here seem to be stuck in a rut. I was SHOCKED to find out that folks here don't seem to do much dyno testing. I can tell you pretty well what to expect from most mods to the Nissan SR20 engine. I know because a lot of folks do a lot of dyno testing. I cannot even find dyno tests for headers for the 8v 944 for crying out loud.
I figured when I bought the 944 to go racing in ITS I would be able to find out all sorts of information and it would be known exactly what does what. I mean, first it's a Porsche and there is a bigger aftermarket than for the SE-R and it's a 20 year old car! No. I know more about how to make power in the SE-R we are developing for ITS than the 944 and the aftermarket is absolutely tiny in comparison.
Perhaps one of the problems in the 944 world is that most of the P-car tuners spend their time and development money on the 911 since there is more money to be had there typically. But, the 951 seems to enjoy an active aftermarket. I don't hear much about anyone using state-of-the-art turbos on them though. Maybe I don't pay enough attention anymore. Anyone with a 951 running one of the Garrett GT turbos? I personally know of at least 3 people running them on the Nissan SR20 engine. One is putting down over 500 hp to the wheels. That's "tuned" 951 territory with 20% less displacement to work with.
Some of it I think it has to do with money. I know of folks who have spent $20-50k on their Nissans, DSMs or Honduhs. When was the last time someone spent that kind of money developing their 8v 944?
There is more of a can-do spirit in the Japanese car circles than in the European car circles it seems. I read all the time here that you cannot do this or that. In the Japanese car circles, a lot of people don't care when you say that. They don't listen, and to their credit, they are often successful.
It's sad to see that the VWs aren't enjoying the same kind of growth. It's there is some places if you know where to look though. One problem with the VWs is the chassis are basically almost 30 years old. They still use the same basic set-up as the old A1 Golf (or did last time I heard). That doesn't lead to much development. Until recently, the Civic (the lowly Civic!) had double wishbone suspension all around!
OK, before anyone sets out to kill me or burn me in effigy (sp?), this is just my honest assessment. I'm certainly not anti-Porsche or anti-European car. I love Porsches and always have. My first cars were European (Ford Capri and A1 Scirocco). I didn't get my first Japanese car until I bought an 86 CRX. That and my ex-wife's 92 Integra made me hate Honduhs. My 91 SE-R is what got me into the Japanese cars. Great car if you ever get to drive one. Stock for stock the 8v 944 has nothing on it (except RWD perhaps if you prefer that - I do). Anyway, this is just my assessment. A lot of folks put down the "rice burners" but that is where the state-of-the-art is.
09-23-2002 | 08:40 PM
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Oh MAN Geo said a mouth full...much better than i ever could. virtualy all points were valid!
I'm approaching my turbo motor from a completely different perspective.
After a year of "observing" the tuners next door.
specifically in regards to engine longevity,detail orientation,etc.,i have decided to have them do my 2.6 turbo motor for me.
This is in keeping with Geo's thought process...
These people survive on INNOVATION. They thrive on it too...
How many german "tuners" do you know that are presently following that path?
In reality (no flames please?) few of you are even aware of the technology going on around you in the serious rice shops. Geo knows only because he races one them. therefore,what you "think" is cutting edge porsche stuff is in reality...seriously old news. I too had no idea until the opportunity to see it first hand literaly moved in next door.
Trust me people...the vast majority of you have absolutely ZERO clue as to what's available for your waterpumpers,and you're gonna have to step OUT of the tuner world you presently know...and into the land of the rising sun.
Geo knows it,I know it and i urge my fellow Porsche owners to know it too.
I'm approaching my turbo motor from a completely different perspective.
After a year of "observing" the tuners next door.
specifically in regards to engine longevity,detail orientation,etc.,i have decided to have them do my 2.6 turbo motor for me.
This is in keeping with Geo's thought process...
These people survive on INNOVATION. They thrive on it too...
How many german "tuners" do you know that are presently following that path?
In reality (no flames please?) few of you are even aware of the technology going on around you in the serious rice shops. Geo knows only because he races one them. therefore,what you "think" is cutting edge porsche stuff is in reality...seriously old news. I too had no idea until the opportunity to see it first hand literaly moved in next door.
Trust me people...the vast majority of you have absolutely ZERO clue as to what's available for your waterpumpers,and you're gonna have to step OUT of the tuner world you presently know...and into the land of the rising sun.
Geo knows it,I know it and i urge my fellow Porsche owners to know it too.
09-23-2002 | 08:41 PM
#10
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Why Japanese? Because there are more of them, economy of scale is a big factor. There are a LOT of hot Fords in the UK - the fact is, even the least successful Honda or Ford model will probably outsell the entire production of Porsche from year zero. (Call a run of the mill scrapyard and ask for Porsche parts if you don't fully grasp this point) If you wanted to set up a company providing tuning materials, who would you back (thinking in cold financial terms)?
I run a Mac, why don't I get all the cool cheap toys like the PC users? Because I am 5% of the market - C'est la vie.
I run a Mac, why don't I get all the cool cheap toys like the PC users? Because I am 5% of the market - C'est la vie.
09-23-2002 | 09:35 PM
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I think the whole point may have missed somehow...
Nobody's saying "go Japanese"...simply apply their superior technology to our PRESENT Porsche platforms.
As Geo said,Porsche technology (aftermarket in particular) has stagnated.
Introducing some cutting edge thought process to our waterpumpers WILL yield results..no question about it.
Nobody's saying "go Japanese"...simply apply their superior technology to our PRESENT Porsche platforms.
As Geo said,Porsche technology (aftermarket in particular) has stagnated.
Introducing some cutting edge thought process to our waterpumpers WILL yield results..no question about it.
09-23-2002 | 10:10 PM
#14
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From: Houston, TX USA
[quote]Originally posted by Red 944:
<strong>Because they're cheaper, lighter, not as engineered, but built to last.</strong><hr></blockquote>
OK, I know I'm going to get flamed, but that is SO parochial.
I've redone a lot of things on my SE-R and torn apart my 944 to build a race car. Let me tell you, the Nissan is much better engineered.
The 944's engineering is more performance oriented, but not by much.
My SE-R and G20 are 7 years newer and that accounts for some of the difference, but not all.
<strong>Because they're cheaper, lighter, not as engineered, but built to last.</strong><hr></blockquote>
OK, I know I'm going to get flamed, but that is SO parochial.
I've redone a lot of things on my SE-R and torn apart my 944 to build a race car. Let me tell you, the Nissan is much better engineered.
The 944's engineering is more performance oriented, but not by much.
My SE-R and G20 are 7 years newer and that accounts for some of the difference, but not all.
09-23-2002 | 10:16 PM
#15
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From: Houston, TX USA
[quote]Originally posted by nib5:
<strong>Why Japanese? Because there are more of them, economy of scale is a big factor. There are a LOT of hot Fords in the UK - the fact is, even the least successful Honda or Ford model will probably outsell the entire production of Porsche from year zero. </strong><hr></blockquote>
This is certainly part of it, but for sure not all of it. The VW tuning scene was very strong long before the current trend towards Japanese cars. Also, this isn't wasn't brought up just about Porsches. It was about European cars. But, even if it were about Porsches, they have always been performance oriented and have always had a strong aftermarket.
The Japanese were not afraid to bring better technology to their cars however, and part of that may have to do with economies of scale. But it's no excuse. How long did it take VW to start putting cross-flow heads in the Golf??? We're not even talking about twin cams here.
<strong>Why Japanese? Because there are more of them, economy of scale is a big factor. There are a LOT of hot Fords in the UK - the fact is, even the least successful Honda or Ford model will probably outsell the entire production of Porsche from year zero. </strong><hr></blockquote>
This is certainly part of it, but for sure not all of it. The VW tuning scene was very strong long before the current trend towards Japanese cars. Also, this isn't wasn't brought up just about Porsches. It was about European cars. But, even if it were about Porsches, they have always been performance oriented and have always had a strong aftermarket.
The Japanese were not afraid to bring better technology to their cars however, and part of that may have to do with economies of scale. But it's no excuse. How long did it take VW to start putting cross-flow heads in the Golf??? We're not even talking about twin cams here.