OT: Compact "tuning"? Asian versus German
09-24-2002, 07:43 PM
#46
Race Director
Wow, Geo, Dave120.... I think the three of us have agreeded on something! 
<img src="graemlins/bigok.gif" border="0" alt="[thumbsup]" />
Well Time for a <img src="graemlins/drink.gif" border="0" alt="[cherrsagai]" />
<img src="graemlins/bigok.gif" border="0" alt="[thumbsup]" /> Well Time for a <img src="graemlins/drink.gif" border="0" alt="[cherrsagai]" />
09-24-2002, 07:47 PM
#47
Race Director
[quote]Originally posted by M758:
<strong>My only QUESTION for Geo is this..... When are you going to get some of the ricer technology into the 944 NA??? Hmm.... is a 300 bhp 2.5L 16v varible valve timing and lift 9000 rpm redline motor a possiblity???? You know Honda S2000 (120 bhp/L) style??
That would be Saurkraut & Rice Dish I would LOVE to try!
</strong><hr></blockquote>
LOL!!!
I wish there were ricer tech to apply to the 8v 944. About the only thing I would say is even somewhat "new tech" (even though it's not) would be the proliferation of stand-alone ECUs. The rest is pretty old school, especially with the 2 valve per cylinder configuration and the shape of the combustion chamber. I've looked at it several times to visualize it it's possible to weld up the combustion chamber and reshape it, but the offset spark plug and valve angle probably make it a low return endeavor. This is something we did with my NA SR20 head - it improves the quench (improving detonation resistance) while also raising the CR.
If I were to build a street 8v 944, I think I would run a stand-alone with a hot-wire MAF (not sensitive to changes in VE), a JME or similar cam, probably test different headers (I would like to do this with my race car, but we'll see if I have the budget to do this initially), do some head work, perhaps have a short runner intake manifold made up, low mass flywheel, low mass pulleys... That would be a good start. Keep in mind, the gains will never be anything like you get from tweaking a 951. But you could probably build a hell of a 2.5 8v! All it takes is money. Hell I spent almost $6k on my NA 200 bhp SR20DE.
The real gains to be had from new technology will all be with the 951 OR installing a turbo on a NA 944. I'm totally confident a sweet turbo'd NA can be done. Hell, it has been done. It was done almost 20 years ago by Calloway. The biggest issue as I see it is engine management. This is exactly the type of thing the Japanese crowd would do. They would figure out how to turbo the 8v and then work out the engine management. They do it all the time. I predict that once one of the 944 tuners figures out a decent turbo package for the NA, it would be quite popular. Engine management is the key ingredient.
<strong>My only QUESTION for Geo is this..... When are you going to get some of the ricer technology into the 944 NA??? Hmm.... is a 300 bhp 2.5L 16v varible valve timing and lift 9000 rpm redline motor a possiblity???? You know Honda S2000 (120 bhp/L) style??
That would be Saurkraut & Rice Dish I would LOVE to try!
</strong><hr></blockquote>LOL!!!
I wish there were ricer tech to apply to the 8v 944. About the only thing I would say is even somewhat "new tech" (even though it's not) would be the proliferation of stand-alone ECUs. The rest is pretty old school, especially with the 2 valve per cylinder configuration and the shape of the combustion chamber. I've looked at it several times to visualize it it's possible to weld up the combustion chamber and reshape it, but the offset spark plug and valve angle probably make it a low return endeavor. This is something we did with my NA SR20 head - it improves the quench (improving detonation resistance) while also raising the CR.
If I were to build a street 8v 944, I think I would run a stand-alone with a hot-wire MAF (not sensitive to changes in VE), a JME or similar cam, probably test different headers (I would like to do this with my race car, but we'll see if I have the budget to do this initially), do some head work, perhaps have a short runner intake manifold made up, low mass flywheel, low mass pulleys... That would be a good start. Keep in mind, the gains will never be anything like you get from tweaking a 951. But you could probably build a hell of a 2.5 8v! All it takes is money.
Hell I spent almost $6k on my NA 200 bhp SR20DE.The real gains to be had from new technology will all be with the 951 OR installing a turbo on a NA 944. I'm totally confident a sweet turbo'd NA can be done. Hell, it has been done. It was done almost 20 years ago by Calloway. The biggest issue as I see it is engine management. This is exactly the type of thing the Japanese crowd would do. They would figure out how to turbo the 8v and then work out the engine management. They do it all the time. I predict that once one of the 944 tuners figures out a decent turbo package for the NA, it would be quite popular. Engine management is the key ingredient.
09-24-2002, 07:50 PM
#48
Race Director
[quote]Originally posted by M758:
<strong>Wow, Geo, Dave120.... I think the three of us have agreeded on something! <img src="graemlins/bigok.gif" border="0" alt="[thumbsup]" />
Well Time for a <img src="graemlins/drink.gif" border="0" alt="[cherrsagai]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>
You're on....
(Geo goes to the fridge for a beer)
<strong>Wow, Geo, Dave120.... I think the three of us have agreeded on something!
<img src="graemlins/bigok.gif" border="0" alt="[thumbsup]" /> Well Time for a <img src="graemlins/drink.gif" border="0" alt="[cherrsagai]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>
You're on....
(Geo goes to the fridge for a beer)
09-24-2002, 08:04 PM
#49
Race Director
[quote]Originally posted by dave120:
<strong>The real "tuners" do get a laugh out of those guys. What's even more funny is that they claim they run these low 1/4 mile #'s and when asked to take it to the track they come up with some lame excuse.</strong><hr></blockquote>
All too often.
[quote]Originally posted by dave120:
<strong>This kid I know with a '93 Sentra with a '98 Sentra motor (NOT SE-R) claims his engine makes too much torque that if he drops the clutch hard his drive shaft will break. His exact words.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Heh. He's been listening to the Honduh crowd. They do have problems with breaking halfshafts on the high hp cars. The Sentra halfshafts are pretty stout. Even on 400+ bhp Sentras, 3rd gear breaks long before halfshafts.
[quote]Originally posted by dave120:
<strong>Last I checked those things aren't torque monsters and I doubt the ~120 ft lbs he's probably putting down will hurt that car at all.
Hehe. Yep. The base engine puts down 108 lb/ft of torque. The SR20DE engine (in the SE-R) puts down 132 lb/ft stock and it is pretty torquey throughout most of the rev range. Not V8 torquey, but more than a lot of sixes even. At the start of races, our ITS SE-R regularly passes 3-4 cars due to the torque available.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by dave120:
[QB]But the funniest part..it's FWD! Drive SHAFT? I don't think he has any clue what he's talkin about.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Yeah, I hate that. But then again, I say gearbox, dampers, aquaplane, etc. I guess I watch too much F1.
<strong>The real "tuners" do get a laugh out of those guys. What's even more funny is that they claim they run these low 1/4 mile #'s and when asked to take it to the track they come up with some lame excuse.</strong><hr></blockquote>
All too often.
[quote]Originally posted by dave120:
<strong>This kid I know with a '93 Sentra with a '98 Sentra motor (NOT SE-R) claims his engine makes too much torque that if he drops the clutch hard his drive shaft will break. His exact words.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Heh. He's been listening to the Honduh crowd. They do have problems with breaking halfshafts on the high hp cars. The Sentra halfshafts are pretty stout. Even on 400+ bhp Sentras, 3rd gear breaks long before halfshafts.
[quote]Originally posted by dave120:
<strong>Last I checked those things aren't torque monsters and I doubt the ~120 ft lbs he's probably putting down will hurt that car at all.
Hehe. Yep. The base engine puts down 108 lb/ft of torque. The SR20DE engine (in the SE-R) puts down 132 lb/ft stock and it is pretty torquey throughout most of the rev range. Not V8 torquey, but more than a lot of sixes even. At the start of races, our ITS SE-R regularly passes 3-4 cars due to the torque available.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by dave120:
[QB]But the funniest part..it's FWD! Drive SHAFT? I don't think he has any clue what he's talkin about.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Yeah, I hate that. But then again, I say gearbox, dampers, aquaplane, etc. I guess I watch too much F1.
09-24-2002, 08:04 PM
#50
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I think Geo is right on the money about the NA power. Nobody is experimenting with it like they are in the Japenese cars. But I can see why they aren't..the cost of parts, the NA 944 not being in huge demand right now, etc. I think the demand, especially from people on these boards with the NA 944s, would be there. But it would be a costly as hell endeavor to have fail if that wasn't the case. Basically these cars are old and while they're still awesome cars, even by today's standards, they are old news as far as the technology in them even though they outperform some newer things.
Apply some of the crazy things in the import scene of today to them, and you've got a hell of a package just like you guys are saying. The aftermarket for these cars is extremely limited. Then again, I look at my friends with Mustangs and stuff and see that there's a replacement for nearly every part of the car and am like "Damn it's a good thing there's nothing to buy for my car or I'd go broke in a hurry!" There's always things to do..but most of the time nobody wants/has the $$ to make such a monster out of the NA when they can "just buy a turbo" like everyone here always says when they talk of turbocharging it. I mean I respect the fact that Porsche added all that other stuff to the turbo rather than just slap the thing on the NA car, but saying "oh you need to upgrade brakes and yadda yadaa.." BRAKES? ONLY if they were going to heavily track it. Why would they need to upgrade brakes for street use? It comes up every single time and I don't know why.
I know why Porsche did it, because these are pure bred race cars and they knew you'd need it on a track. On the street I don't see the NA brakes being that incapable of handling the car, especially with a decent set of pads.
As far as all the engine internals go, yes, the turbo ones are a better choice than trying to put extra stress on the NA parts. But I have yet to see Porsche build something ONLY to handle stock spec power and nothing more. I don't see adding 60-70 hp to an NA causing major reliability problems with the motor if done correctly.
That really is the only trend I dislike on these boards is that anytime trying to get power from an NA comes up there's a slew of "just sell it and buy a 951" replies right away. More cost effective maybe, but not everybody cares about that.
Before I had this car I had a '96 Chevy S10 pickup. Well I decided I wanted to make it go faster. I didn't get a "sell it and buy a Camaro" when I posted on boards about it, I got a list of mods I could to achieve this goal. Before I got too far into that project this 944 S2 came along and stole me away from that but I think my point on it is clear.
Wow I never make so many posts this long..you guys are hitting on a few things for which I actually have a lot to say <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />
Apply some of the crazy things in the import scene of today to them, and you've got a hell of a package just like you guys are saying. The aftermarket for these cars is extremely limited. Then again, I look at my friends with Mustangs and stuff and see that there's a replacement for nearly every part of the car and am like "Damn it's a good thing there's nothing to buy for my car or I'd go broke in a hurry!" There's always things to do..but most of the time nobody wants/has the $$ to make such a monster out of the NA when they can "just buy a turbo" like everyone here always says when they talk of turbocharging it. I mean I respect the fact that Porsche added all that other stuff to the turbo rather than just slap the thing on the NA car, but saying "oh you need to upgrade brakes and yadda yadaa.." BRAKES? ONLY if they were going to heavily track it. Why would they need to upgrade brakes for street use? It comes up every single time and I don't know why.
I know why Porsche did it, because these are pure bred race cars and they knew you'd need it on a track. On the street I don't see the NA brakes being that incapable of handling the car, especially with a decent set of pads.
As far as all the engine internals go, yes, the turbo ones are a better choice than trying to put extra stress on the NA parts. But I have yet to see Porsche build something ONLY to handle stock spec power and nothing more. I don't see adding 60-70 hp to an NA causing major reliability problems with the motor if done correctly.
That really is the only trend I dislike on these boards is that anytime trying to get power from an NA comes up there's a slew of "just sell it and buy a 951" replies right away. More cost effective maybe, but not everybody cares about that.
Before I had this car I had a '96 Chevy S10 pickup. Well I decided I wanted to make it go faster. I didn't get a "sell it and buy a Camaro" when I posted on boards about it, I got a list of mods I could to achieve this goal. Before I got too far into that project this 944 S2 came along and stole me away from that but I think my point on it is clear.
Wow I never make so many posts this long..you guys are hitting on a few things for which I actually have a lot to say <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />
09-24-2002, 08:06 PM
#51
Race Director
[quote]Originally posted by Geo:
<strong>
If I were to build a street 8v 944, I think I would run a stand-alone with a hot-wire MAF (not sensitive to changes in VE), a JME or similar cam, probably test different headers (I would like to do this with my race car, but we'll see if I have the budget to do this initially), do some head work, perhaps have a short runner intake manifold made up, low mass flywheel, low mass pulleys... That would be a good start. </strong><hr></blockquote>
Heck I have 84 Motor laying around that requires a rebuild... If I had the dough I would love to make up a killer 944 NA PCA GT4 car to stomp all the old 911's out there.
They only class rules limit the motor 2.8L... Heck if I could get about 300 hp from that thing go carbon fiber body with weight reduction to about 2100lbs like Quick44... I think I would stand I chance... Hey anybody wanna sponsor my quest for a GT4 dominating 944 NA?????
Plenty of space on the car for your name????
<strong>
If I were to build a street 8v 944, I think I would run a stand-alone with a hot-wire MAF (not sensitive to changes in VE), a JME or similar cam, probably test different headers (I would like to do this with my race car, but we'll see if I have the budget to do this initially), do some head work, perhaps have a short runner intake manifold made up, low mass flywheel, low mass pulleys... That would be a good start. </strong><hr></blockquote>
Heck I have 84 Motor laying around that requires a rebuild... If I had the dough I would love to make up a killer 944 NA PCA GT4 car to stomp all the old 911's out there.
They only class rules limit the motor 2.8L... Heck if I could get about 300 hp from that thing go carbon fiber body with weight reduction to about 2100lbs like Quick44... I think I would stand I chance... Hey anybody wanna sponsor my quest for a GT4 dominating 944 NA?????
Plenty of space on the car for your name????
09-24-2002, 08:37 PM
#52
Race Director
Oh, I forgot.....
You can download the video of my friend dicing with the 944 and gen-II RX-7 here:
<a href="http://home.gatm.com:2005/temp/lrp0802.rm" target="_blank">http://home.gatm.com:2005/temp/lrp0802.rm</a>
<a href="http://home.gatm.com:2005/temp/lrp0802.wmv" target="_blank">http://home.gatm.com:2005/temp/lrp0802.wmv</a>
Be advised.... it's 31 meg however. But it's 20 minutes.
You can download the video of my friend dicing with the 944 and gen-II RX-7 here:
<a href="http://home.gatm.com:2005/temp/lrp0802.rm" target="_blank">http://home.gatm.com:2005/temp/lrp0802.rm</a>
<a href="http://home.gatm.com:2005/temp/lrp0802.wmv" target="_blank">http://home.gatm.com:2005/temp/lrp0802.wmv</a>
Be advised.... it's 31 meg however. But it's 20 minutes.
09-25-2002, 09:17 AM
#53
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Hey Geo thanks for posting the movie. I love watching track films. Now I can show my girlfriend what I could do with her car! ;-) I didn't see any real "dicing" between the NX and the 944 though, the only time he caught the 944 was when they came up on some traffic and he stayed on his bumper when he was forced out of line by whatever that other car was that was really dicing with him. I would say though that neither car could claim to be a lot faster. There were much faster cars in that race but I couldn't make them out, was the black one that blew by everyone a 3000GT?
Let me also say I respect your opinions just as I do everyone elses, but before the current love fest gets out of hand (never was one for group hugs) let me state that I still remain to be convinced that the SE-R is a comparable platform to the 944, especially in the quality area. How easy the headliner comes off in a car thats been sitting in the sun for three years doesn't seem to me to be a valid measure of quality ;-)
The quality I'm talking about is the build quality of things that matter. I don't care what the outside of the block looks like (one of Danno's points I recall) and it has absolutely nothing to do with anything that matters. Every time I close the door on my car I am reminded I'm not driving an inexpensive japanese car. I believe (and I could be wrong but no one has shown me otherwise) that that solid tank-like chassis quality translates directly into feedback and performance on the track.
Like I said I respect your opinions and without hard data we may have to agree to disagree, but I am not going to call anyone biased. There have been some emotional comments here and although I applaud you in particular for remaining quite level headed, not the least of the emotional remarks have come from your supporters. Lets not throw the bias charge around so easily.
Cheers, <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />
Alan
Let me also say I respect your opinions just as I do everyone elses, but before the current love fest gets out of hand (never was one for group hugs) let me state that I still remain to be convinced that the SE-R is a comparable platform to the 944, especially in the quality area. How easy the headliner comes off in a car thats been sitting in the sun for three years doesn't seem to me to be a valid measure of quality ;-)
The quality I'm talking about is the build quality of things that matter. I don't care what the outside of the block looks like (one of Danno's points I recall) and it has absolutely nothing to do with anything that matters. Every time I close the door on my car I am reminded I'm not driving an inexpensive japanese car. I believe (and I could be wrong but no one has shown me otherwise) that that solid tank-like chassis quality translates directly into feedback and performance on the track.
Like I said I respect your opinions and without hard data we may have to agree to disagree, but I am not going to call anyone biased. There have been some emotional comments here and although I applaud you in particular for remaining quite level headed, not the least of the emotional remarks have come from your supporters. Lets not throw the bias charge around so easily.
Cheers, <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />
Alan
09-25-2002, 10:55 AM
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I agree with Geo that the aftermarket performnace tuning for the 944 is basically non-existent. And that the Japanese are more advanced and agressive in what they are able to achieve with their cars.
But a porsche is considered a prestigious car. I don't see an aftermarket for Ferrari or Alfa Romeo either.
My Car is 16 years old and it's still a looker. Everytime I take the thing out, there is always somebody asking me something about the car. A friend of mine always says that my car was ahead of it's time. Obviously I wish I could get more power out of the N/A for cheaper but the demand is not there. That's what makes us so different. If it was in high demand , you would see 944's everywhere and they wouldn't be special (excuse the corniness.. )
But a porsche is considered a prestigious car. I don't see an aftermarket for Ferrari or Alfa Romeo either.
My Car is 16 years old and it's still a looker. Everytime I take the thing out, there is always somebody asking me something about the car. A friend of mine always says that my car was ahead of it's time. Obviously I wish I could get more power out of the N/A for cheaper but the demand is not there. That's what makes us so different. If it was in high demand , you would see 944's everywhere and they wouldn't be special (excuse the corniness.. )
09-25-2002, 11:12 AM
#55
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"Japanese innovation" "Superior technology"
What a bunch of hogwash.
Variable cams, Wankle engines, turbo technology,etc, ha, all been done a long time ago by the Germans or the British.
The only thing the Japanese have done is put the stuff in to mass production and make it cheaper.
What a bunch of hogwash.
Variable cams, Wankle engines, turbo technology,etc, ha, all been done a long time ago by the Germans or the British.
The only thing the Japanese have done is put the stuff in to mass production and make it cheaper.
09-25-2002, 11:36 AM
#56
Race Director
[quote]Originally posted by AutoXdriver:
<strong>I didn't see any real "dicing" between the NX and the 944 though, the only time he caught the 944 was when they came up on some traffic and he stayed on his bumper when he was forced out of line by whatever that other car was that was really dicing with him.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
You're right, there wasn't much. I didn't think he caught him in traffic, but the 944 did seem to be able to slip away a bit at a time.
But, at 12:20 he passes a dark colored 944 pretty easily.
[quote]Originally posted by AutoXdriver:
<strong>I would say though that neither car could claim to be a lot faster.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Which was my point.
[quote]Originally posted by AutoXdriver:
<strong>There were much faster cars in that race but I couldn't make them out, was the black one that blew by everyone a 3000GT?
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Looks to me to be a PCA class 951, probably racing in ITE.
[quote]Originally posted by AutoXdriver:
<strong>let me state that I still remain to be convinced that the SE-R is a comparable platform to the 944, especially in the quality area. How easy the headliner comes off in a car thats been sitting in the sun for three years doesn't seem to me to be a valid measure of quality ;-)
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Actually, that wasn't what surprised me. I knew it would be an issue. What surprised me was A) the thickness (or thinness really) of the material, and B) that it was just glued in place.
[quote]Originally posted by AutoXdriver:
<strong>Every time I close the door on my car I am reminded I'm not driving an inexpensive japanese car.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Wow, you know, that is one big thing I notice as well. The door is solid and closes with a solid click of the latch, but not because the door is heavy (it isn't). It may seem silly to some, but that is a sign of excellent engineering to me.
[quote]Originally posted by AutoXdriver:
<strong>I believe (and I could be wrong but no one has shown me otherwise) that that solid tank-like chassis quality translates directly into feedback and performance on the track.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Yes and no. A solid chassis will improve the feedback and responsiveness of that car. But you cannot catagorically state that a stiff car will out perform a more flexible car. What the stiff chassis does is make the suspension react more consistently and do what it should. A good example in reverse is the SE-R/NX.... The rear of these cars are so flexible that they don't respond as they should to changes in swaybars and springs. The chassis sort of becomes a spring itself. It's amazing the car is such a good performer in spite of this. We're hoping when we get a proper welded cage in our race car (we currently have an Autopower), we are hoping it will respond to changes better.
[quote]Originally posted by AutoXdriver:
<strong>Like I said I respect your opinions and without hard data we may have to agree to disagree</strong><hr></blockquote>
That's fine and I respect that. I like hard data as well and that's one reason I try not to get emotional about these things. I'm probably less emotional about the 944 than most as well because for me it's a tool like any race car. That said, I'm not totally academic about race cars (when I'm doing the buying). I really like the idea of racing the 944 and I relish the challenge of making it competitive. I know it can be, despite what many try to say (a lot of people won't race a 944 in ITS because they think it cannot be competitive).
<strong>I didn't see any real "dicing" between the NX and the 944 though, the only time he caught the 944 was when they came up on some traffic and he stayed on his bumper when he was forced out of line by whatever that other car was that was really dicing with him.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
You're right, there wasn't much. I didn't think he caught him in traffic, but the 944 did seem to be able to slip away a bit at a time.
But, at 12:20 he passes a dark colored 944 pretty easily.
[quote]Originally posted by AutoXdriver:
<strong>I would say though that neither car could claim to be a lot faster.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Which was my point.
[quote]Originally posted by AutoXdriver:
<strong>There were much faster cars in that race but I couldn't make them out, was the black one that blew by everyone a 3000GT?
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Looks to me to be a PCA class 951, probably racing in ITE.
[quote]Originally posted by AutoXdriver:
<strong>let me state that I still remain to be convinced that the SE-R is a comparable platform to the 944, especially in the quality area. How easy the headliner comes off in a car thats been sitting in the sun for three years doesn't seem to me to be a valid measure of quality ;-)
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Actually, that wasn't what surprised me. I knew it would be an issue. What surprised me was A) the thickness (or thinness really) of the material, and B) that it was just glued in place.
[quote]Originally posted by AutoXdriver:
<strong>Every time I close the door on my car I am reminded I'm not driving an inexpensive japanese car.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Wow, you know, that is one big thing I notice as well. The door is solid and closes with a solid click of the latch, but not because the door is heavy (it isn't). It may seem silly to some, but that is a sign of excellent engineering to me.
[quote]Originally posted by AutoXdriver:
<strong>I believe (and I could be wrong but no one has shown me otherwise) that that solid tank-like chassis quality translates directly into feedback and performance on the track.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Yes and no. A solid chassis will improve the feedback and responsiveness of that car. But you cannot catagorically state that a stiff car will out perform a more flexible car. What the stiff chassis does is make the suspension react more consistently and do what it should. A good example in reverse is the SE-R/NX.... The rear of these cars are so flexible that they don't respond as they should to changes in swaybars and springs. The chassis sort of becomes a spring itself. It's amazing the car is such a good performer in spite of this. We're hoping when we get a proper welded cage in our race car (we currently have an Autopower), we are hoping it will respond to changes better.
[quote]Originally posted by AutoXdriver:
<strong>Like I said I respect your opinions and without hard data we may have to agree to disagree</strong><hr></blockquote>
That's fine and I respect that. I like hard data as well and that's one reason I try not to get emotional about these things. I'm probably less emotional about the 944 than most as well because for me it's a tool like any race car. That said, I'm not totally academic about race cars (when I'm doing the buying). I really like the idea of racing the 944 and I relish the challenge of making it competitive. I know it can be, despite what many try to say (a lot of people won't race a 944 in ITS because they think it cannot be competitive).
09-25-2002, 11:56 AM
#57
Race Director
[quote]Originally posted by Toronto86 944:
<strong>My Car is 16 years old and it's still a looker. Everytime I take the thing out, there is always somebody asking me something about the car. A friend of mine always says that my car was ahead of it's time.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
No doubt. IMHO the styling is timeless and the performance is still among the best of reasonably affordable performance cars. Not the best, but still among the best.
[quote]Originally posted by Toronto86 944:
<strong>Obviously I wish I could get more power out of the N/A for cheaper but the demand is not there. That's what makes us so different.</strong><hr></blockquote>
And that was exactly the point of this thread - why the big growth in the Asian car aftermarket? And the answer is, that is where the money is being spent, so that is where the development is.
<strong>My Car is 16 years old and it's still a looker. Everytime I take the thing out, there is always somebody asking me something about the car. A friend of mine always says that my car was ahead of it's time.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
No doubt. IMHO the styling is timeless and the performance is still among the best of reasonably affordable performance cars. Not the best, but still among the best.
[quote]Originally posted by Toronto86 944:
<strong>Obviously I wish I could get more power out of the N/A for cheaper but the demand is not there. That's what makes us so different.</strong><hr></blockquote>
And that was exactly the point of this thread - why the big growth in the Asian car aftermarket? And the answer is, that is where the money is being spent, so that is where the development is.
09-25-2002, 12:37 PM
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I haVE A FAIRLY stock 951 86 with a few mods. (chips, fuel, msd ignition.)
and well one of my friends has a honda delsol. He build a turbo kit for it. (for about $1200) now after a little bit of tuning he is right up with me till about the top of fourth. (when my gearing helps me accerate to speeds not capable with his stock honda chassis..
now my other friend has a DSM (Talon) and well. me and him compared his mod list cost to my mod list cost. and well.. I can see why a great portion of owners are doing the japanese tuner thing.. his parts added up to under 1/4 the cost of mine. we compared the exact type of mods.. (exhaust, turbo upgrade, cpu upgrades, intake, intercooler, and all the little goodies..)
for example if he were to buy a bolt up a 3" exhaust from his turbo to the back of his car it would cost him about $450. now with us.. if you use the SFR down pipe, then cat pipe , then the cat back pipe. your looking at over $1800.. this is why the japanese market is a little better suited to this kind of thing.. it is cheaper..
and well one of my friends has a honda delsol. He build a turbo kit for it. (for about $1200) now after a little bit of tuning he is right up with me till about the top of fourth. (when my gearing helps me accerate to speeds not capable with his stock honda chassis..
now my other friend has a DSM (Talon) and well. me and him compared his mod list cost to my mod list cost. and well.. I can see why a great portion of owners are doing the japanese tuner thing.. his parts added up to under 1/4 the cost of mine. we compared the exact type of mods.. (exhaust, turbo upgrade, cpu upgrades, intake, intercooler, and all the little goodies..)
for example if he were to buy a bolt up a 3" exhaust from his turbo to the back of his car it would cost him about $450. now with us.. if you use the SFR down pipe, then cat pipe , then the cat back pipe. your looking at over $1800.. this is why the japanese market is a little better suited to this kind of thing.. it is cheaper..
09-25-2002, 02:51 PM
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<a href="http://www.twinsturbo.com" target="_blank">www.twinsturbo.com</a>
These guys are it.
Absolute cutting-edge technology both turbo AND naturally aspirated.
Pinnacle players, tech advisors to one of the top ALMS WSC cars in the country,first to run methanol in a rice motor,Motec guru's,NA long-rod pioneers...etc.
These guys are it.
Absolute cutting-edge technology both turbo AND naturally aspirated.
Pinnacle players, tech advisors to one of the top ALMS WSC cars in the country,first to run methanol in a rice motor,Motec guru's,NA long-rod pioneers...etc.
09-25-2002, 03:05 PM
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[quote]Originally posted by hybrid_944:
<strong> this is why the japanese market is a little better suited to this kind of thing.. it is cheaper..</strong><hr></blockquote>
I'm not sure that's the case...well maybe compared to Porsche parts basically because Porsche parts aren't nearly as high in demand so they're not all that common. But compare prices of Japanese aftermarket parts to the price of domestic stuff and it's a lot more expensive. You can get a full exaust system for a Mustang for like 1/2 the price and it'll do twice as much for the car.
But that's not new and innovative that's old fashioned. So instead of using raw cubic inches people are now taking smaller econobox engines and making serious power with them. As much as I dislike rice, well, "improperly tuned rice" I should say, some of the stuff the real import tuners are coming up with is pretty radical. The turbo technology they use now is impressive. Somebody should try applying that to a 951 and see what the results are. NOS though I think is phony hp..once your bottle is empty it's all over.
<strong> this is why the japanese market is a little better suited to this kind of thing.. it is cheaper..</strong><hr></blockquote>
I'm not sure that's the case...well maybe compared to Porsche parts basically because Porsche parts aren't nearly as high in demand so they're not all that common. But compare prices of Japanese aftermarket parts to the price of domestic stuff and it's a lot more expensive. You can get a full exaust system for a Mustang for like 1/2 the price and it'll do twice as much for the car.
But that's not new and innovative that's old fashioned. So instead of using raw cubic inches people are now taking smaller econobox engines and making serious power with them. As much as I dislike rice, well, "improperly tuned rice" I should say, some of the stuff the real import tuners are coming up with is pretty radical. The turbo technology they use now is impressive. Somebody should try applying that to a 951 and see what the results are. NOS though I think is phony hp..once your bottle is empty it's all over.