OT: Compact "tuning"? Asian versus German
09-25-2002, 06:14 PM
#76
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Now I have to say that I respect the opinions of a lot of folks on this board, but I think George is my new hero.
Hey SilverBullet, nice to have you back Craig.
Hey SilverBullet, nice to have you back Craig.
09-25-2002, 06:37 PM
#77
Burning Brakes
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[quote]Originally posted by 944S2NUT:
<strong>
What makes a mac so special?? Cause a G4 1000mhz is = to a P4 20,000gh?? that maybe so BUT you bus speed ext... hard drive are ur bottle necks. Making it not that much diff from a PC So inreality you are paying more for nothing. Lets not for get how propriotary<--spelling) they are virtually no upgrading poss, and yes they need to be upgraded as frequently as a PC.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Not to start a flame war, but you're obviously out of touch with where the mac is these days.
Not different than a PC? it runs a completely different OS, so yes, it's 100% different. the fact that the hardware is "the same" is a benefit.
No upgrades? since (once again) it's the same basic hardware (drives, RAM, periferals, etc.) there are lots and lots of upgrades. ATI and nvidia make all their cards for both platforms.
Your two points contradict each other, and also back up my point. The mac is quite different enough to give me (and someone else) enough of a reason to buy one, but at the same time, there are plenty of parts out there to upgrade them with.
just some random thoughts
<strong>
What makes a mac so special?? Cause a G4 1000mhz is = to a P4 20,000gh?? that maybe so BUT you bus speed ext... hard drive are ur bottle necks. Making it not that much diff from a PC So inreality you are paying more for nothing. Lets not for get how propriotary<--spelling) they are virtually no upgrading poss, and yes they need to be upgraded as frequently as a PC.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Not to start a flame war, but you're obviously out of touch with where the mac is these days.
Not different than a PC? it runs a completely different OS, so yes, it's 100% different. the fact that the hardware is "the same" is a benefit.
No upgrades? since (once again) it's the same basic hardware (drives, RAM, periferals, etc.) there are lots and lots of upgrades. ATI and nvidia make all their cards for both platforms.
Your two points contradict each other, and also back up my point. The mac is quite different enough to give me (and someone else) enough of a reason to buy one, but at the same time, there are plenty of parts out there to upgrade them with.
just some random thoughts
09-25-2002, 07:16 PM
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Say whatever you want GEO, I didn't like the fact that you criticized the quality of our porsches. And you did. don't say you didn't. saying that japanese interior is far better quality than the 944 has only one point.
09-25-2002, 07:24 PM
#80
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[quote]Originally posted by Silverbullet951:
<strong>Say whatever you want GEO, I didn't like the fact that you criticized the quality of our porsches. And you did. don't say you didn't. saying that japanese interior is far better quality than the 944 has only one point.</strong><hr></blockquote>
So what's yours? Are you saying the Emperor is wearing clothes???
So, you'd rather me tow the party line Komissar?
<strong>Say whatever you want GEO, I didn't like the fact that you criticized the quality of our porsches. And you did. don't say you didn't. saying that japanese interior is far better quality than the 944 has only one point.</strong><hr></blockquote>
So what's yours? Are you saying the Emperor is wearing clothes???
So, you'd rather me tow the party line Komissar?
09-25-2002, 07:31 PM
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Ok, I think this has gotten too far, I don't want to fight with you. I started it, so just forget i ever said anything. we're acting a little childish. Good luck with your 944 race car.
09-25-2002, 07:58 PM
#82
Race Director
[quote]Originally posted by Silverbullet951:
<strong>Ok, I think this has gotten too far, I don't want to fight with you. I started it, so just forget i ever said anything.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
You're on!
[quote]Originally posted by Silverbullet951:
<strong>we're acting a little childish.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />
[quote]Originally posted by Silverbullet951:
<strong>Good luck with your 944 race car.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Thank you!
<strong>Ok, I think this has gotten too far, I don't want to fight with you. I started it, so just forget i ever said anything.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
You're on!
[quote]Originally posted by Silverbullet951:
<strong>we're acting a little childish.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />
[quote]Originally posted by Silverbullet951:
<strong>Good luck with your 944 race car.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Thank you!
09-26-2002, 12:16 AM
#83
[quote]Originally posted by Silverbullet951:
<strong>Say whatever you want GEO, I didn't like the fact that you criticized the quality of our porsches. And you did. don't say you didn't. saying that japanese interior is far better quality than the 944 has only one point.</strong><hr></blockquote>
He attacked certain points of our 20 year old cars because they are prone to failure. The timing belts are terrible. The original waterpumps weren't the best design. The electric sunroof pieces (I love my mechanical one!) often brake. Relays go out. DME's die. I need new front seals. <img src="graemlins/cussing.gif" border="0" alt="[grrrrrrr]" />
These cars have problems, and most peopel buying them know it and accept it. The overall quality, fun factor, and feeling for these cars out weighs that...by a lot. <img src="graemlins/bigok.gif" border="0" alt="[thumbsup]" />
You're the blind fool by being upset that he's criticizing Porsche. If there was never any criticism, there would never be any innovation, and we'd still be driving around 924's. Lighten up, and quit being such a fanboy. Porsches have problems. So do all other cars. 944's just happen to have a few more because they are old. Now do shutup.
<img src="graemlins/soapbox.gif" border="0" alt="[soapbox]" />
<strong>Say whatever you want GEO, I didn't like the fact that you criticized the quality of our porsches. And you did. don't say you didn't. saying that japanese interior is far better quality than the 944 has only one point.</strong><hr></blockquote>
He attacked certain points of our 20 year old cars because they are prone to failure. The timing belts are terrible. The original waterpumps weren't the best design. The electric sunroof pieces (I love my mechanical one!) often brake. Relays go out. DME's die. I need new front seals. <img src="graemlins/cussing.gif" border="0" alt="[grrrrrrr]" />
These cars have problems, and most peopel buying them know it and accept it. The overall quality, fun factor, and feeling for these cars out weighs that...by a lot. <img src="graemlins/bigok.gif" border="0" alt="[thumbsup]" />
You're the blind fool by being upset that he's criticizing Porsche. If there was never any criticism, there would never be any innovation, and we'd still be driving around 924's. Lighten up, and quit being such a fanboy. Porsches have problems. So do all other cars. 944's just happen to have a few more because they are old. Now do shutup.
<img src="graemlins/soapbox.gif" border="0" alt="[soapbox]" />
09-27-2002, 03:13 AM
#84
Burning Brakes
Wow, this became a heated post... take a few days off an I come back to the old "Sports car" vs. "I want to be a sports car" argument.
I read 95% of the posts, not all, got bored by some of it...
1. Civics, Integra, Subarus, etc etc etc are economy cars. No matter which way you slice it, you are wasting money trying to create a car to fill a role it was never intended to. If you are into Skylines, Z's, Supras, or RX7's, then its a different story. You will actually get power out of these engines, but anyone who broses the Supra forums will note that HP is all they brag about, the 1/4 times they post are absolutely horrible. By the same token however, you can make a Chevette into a 7 second car if you throw enough money at it.
2. Not all ricers are bad. There are the "all show, no go" kids (95% of population) who think that a Folgers can and some neon lights around the licence plate will add 300 HP, and there are the ACTUAL tuners out there that get 300 HP from a lawn mover engine. The former I detest, the latter I respect.
3. For people on this forum NOT to defend their beloved P-cars would be blasphemy. Ever lister who is foaming at the mouth should NOT feel "conflicted" about it.
4. There is a difference between performance and PERFORMANCE. Sure you can put $30,000 into a Civic and make it go fast (Most of the money is spent taking most of the "Civic" out of the cars, but thats a different argument). But what happens when you take that same $30,000 and put it into a 951S?
5. Comparing a brand new car's technology to one produced 15 years ago is simply stupid. Turn the argument around instead... my 15 year old car started life advanced enough that it can still run with anything out there... why arent you "smoking" me?
6. People like, and will buy different cars. I like German cars, and finicial fate willing, I will always own them. Some people like Japanese cars, thats fine. The interest of "tuning" however, is not specific to any nation I gather. The guy that wants to make his German car go faster is the same as the guy that wants to make his Jap car go faster.
7. 924/944/968 owners have an automatic distaste for most of these Japanese cars, this must be understood... the Japanese essentially COPIED the 944. Youve seen what Moter Trend recently called the "944 inspired 300ZX?" Perhaps youve seen the 240SX, or maybe an RX7? What are these cars but further developed 944s?
8. "Going faster" has a different definition in the 944 community than it does in the "Jap Tuner" community. Most of the Japanese crowd is constantly trying to get into the "13's" with the little cars, where as Im completely content push my car to its limits on backroads with no one around to get in the way.
9. History. There should be no argument here, driving a Porsche, weather it be a 911, 944, or 914 is an EXPERIENCE! Driving a Civic with bolt on mods is driving a Civic with bolt on mods. When you are driving your Porsche you are taking part in a love affair of sorts - your purchase was emotional and so is your driving experience. Porsche owners LOVE their cars... I havent met a Ricer yet with the same ammount of devotion to his WRX. Incedently, I never saw the Integra Type R that ran at LeMans... did I miss it?
10. In conclusion (and apology for such a long post) I will submit that Porsche owners are "closed minded" when it comes to CHANGING their cars. Most of us would feel embarressed/guilty of treason if we put "THE TORNADO" intake on our cars... or the "HURRICANE" muffler... or the "AVENGER" body kit. This "close mindedness" can be looked on as a positive or a negative thing... I choose positive. What better testament to a car's quality and performace can you give than "I wouldnt change a thing." In addition to this, the quality of the individual behind the wheel counts for alot of this resentment... how many insecure Porsche owners do you see revving their engines at everything with four wheels? We know what we have and are damn proud of it... more power to the Japanese tuners and their quest to get competitive performance out of their cars... my car already has it.
I read 95% of the posts, not all, got bored by some of it...
1. Civics, Integra, Subarus, etc etc etc are economy cars. No matter which way you slice it, you are wasting money trying to create a car to fill a role it was never intended to. If you are into Skylines, Z's, Supras, or RX7's, then its a different story. You will actually get power out of these engines, but anyone who broses the Supra forums will note that HP is all they brag about, the 1/4 times they post are absolutely horrible. By the same token however, you can make a Chevette into a 7 second car if you throw enough money at it.
2. Not all ricers are bad. There are the "all show, no go" kids (95% of population) who think that a Folgers can and some neon lights around the licence plate will add 300 HP, and there are the ACTUAL tuners out there that get 300 HP from a lawn mover engine. The former I detest, the latter I respect.
3. For people on this forum NOT to defend their beloved P-cars would be blasphemy. Ever lister who is foaming at the mouth should NOT feel "conflicted" about it.
4. There is a difference between performance and PERFORMANCE. Sure you can put $30,000 into a Civic and make it go fast (Most of the money is spent taking most of the "Civic" out of the cars, but thats a different argument). But what happens when you take that same $30,000 and put it into a 951S?
5. Comparing a brand new car's technology to one produced 15 years ago is simply stupid. Turn the argument around instead... my 15 year old car started life advanced enough that it can still run with anything out there... why arent you "smoking" me?
6. People like, and will buy different cars. I like German cars, and finicial fate willing, I will always own them. Some people like Japanese cars, thats fine. The interest of "tuning" however, is not specific to any nation I gather. The guy that wants to make his German car go faster is the same as the guy that wants to make his Jap car go faster.
7. 924/944/968 owners have an automatic distaste for most of these Japanese cars, this must be understood... the Japanese essentially COPIED the 944. Youve seen what Moter Trend recently called the "944 inspired 300ZX?" Perhaps youve seen the 240SX, or maybe an RX7? What are these cars but further developed 944s?
8. "Going faster" has a different definition in the 944 community than it does in the "Jap Tuner" community. Most of the Japanese crowd is constantly trying to get into the "13's" with the little cars, where as Im completely content push my car to its limits on backroads with no one around to get in the way.
9. History. There should be no argument here, driving a Porsche, weather it be a 911, 944, or 914 is an EXPERIENCE! Driving a Civic with bolt on mods is driving a Civic with bolt on mods. When you are driving your Porsche you are taking part in a love affair of sorts - your purchase was emotional and so is your driving experience. Porsche owners LOVE their cars... I havent met a Ricer yet with the same ammount of devotion to his WRX. Incedently, I never saw the Integra Type R that ran at LeMans... did I miss it?
10. In conclusion (and apology for such a long post) I will submit that Porsche owners are "closed minded" when it comes to CHANGING their cars. Most of us would feel embarressed/guilty of treason if we put "THE TORNADO" intake on our cars... or the "HURRICANE" muffler... or the "AVENGER" body kit. This "close mindedness" can be looked on as a positive or a negative thing... I choose positive. What better testament to a car's quality and performace can you give than "I wouldnt change a thing." In addition to this, the quality of the individual behind the wheel counts for alot of this resentment... how many insecure Porsche owners do you see revving their engines at everything with four wheels? We know what we have and are damn proud of it... more power to the Japanese tuners and their quest to get competitive performance out of their cars... my car already has it.
09-27-2002, 05:48 AM
#85
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I'm just posting 'cause I want to be a part of this "cool" thread. At least it's cooling down now. . .
{B]As far as Asian technology goes:[/B] I've always thought it was very humble and brilliant of Porsche to aquire the balance-shaft technology from Mitsubishi and apply it to the 944. Really, I can just see these grey-haired German engineers getting all getting all bunched about figuring out their own way to handle the issue rather than recognising a good thing, paying for it and moving on. It shows true genius, not in revolutionary breakthrough but recognizing an elegant solution has already presented itself.
Re. Innovation & the 944: there are some parts of our cars that are beautifully done (the transmission, brakes, my God, the late dash/interiors are like modern art!) and some were not so well done as mentioned before. It WAS an entry level sportscar. It was tied to technology forged in the Audi E 425's concept, - though a Porsche design, it needed to be cheap and use existing VW parts. The argument that a 944 engine was half of a 928 engine bears some real truth. Still in it's evolution came some points of sheer Porsche brilliance. 16 years after it's arrival at the dealer and I still marvel at my car daily at it's performance. Entry level Porsche, I'm glad because if not for it, I would be driving some tattered 911SC or a very well sorted 914 because it's what I can afford. That said, I agree, the control arm guy should have been fired!
Re. Styling: I cant think of too many "reliable" cars that speak to my blood like my car. A Muria would be stellar, but come on - drive it to the car show -OK, but you cant get groceries in it. Then you need to drive a Camary 95% of the time like everyone else and what fun is that? The beauty of our cars is in their everyday enjoyability and it's truely elegant form balanced with it's amazing capabilities. It's not just the umph under the hood - and it's certainly not the "Crest" on the hood (status), it's those lines, those leather seats (ever SAT in a leather Porsche Sports seat?. . .drool). The reason a nice restraunt is $20 a plate is not because of the food served or the name in the phone book - It's the experience. I dont get that in my wifes 1G Eclipse turbo or my bosses new Cadillac, though some of their technology in stock form is ahead of my car and it's performance comparable on paper.
Re. Tuning and Tuners: I think you have to admit we have some tallented boutique entitys producing new stuff every year for our cars. Even the rotund hot-head form San Diego - have another donut - is offering some cool new product offerings for turbos and NA's alike (LSD's, Carbon fibre torque tubes. . .) There is real innovation going on in the 944 world. Look at the Guru guys - a true grass-roots solutuion provider born out of discussion off this very board with "If we build it, they will come" attitude. And the SFR supercharger and AMR's low boost turbo kits, though pricey, are solid attempts to provide improvement for US. Understand that the economy of scale diff. between a cold-air kit for a Civic and stuff for us means ours costs more. Deal with it - Innovation is still going on. One shop that is always in the import tuner magazines and such is Zeil motorsports in Downey. Jon, though he gets most of his $ from import tuning products (the folgers cans and wings) he totally digs Porsches and adapts the technology where he can. His JIC suspension stuff for 911, 993, 996 and 944 is really good stuff - and priced the same as kits for the 300Z 's and RX-7's. He had a booth at the big Ventura thing a couple weeks ago that hardly anyone paid attention to - I think because his stuff didnt say "Weltmeister" on it. My point is, it IS out there.
Oh, and I like the fact this thread has taken the turn it has because it scares me to think I would have to drive something else because my top 4 picks of available cars in the $10K range are all Porsches.
{B]As far as Asian technology goes:[/B] I've always thought it was very humble and brilliant of Porsche to aquire the balance-shaft technology from Mitsubishi and apply it to the 944. Really, I can just see these grey-haired German engineers getting all getting all bunched about figuring out their own way to handle the issue rather than recognising a good thing, paying for it and moving on. It shows true genius, not in revolutionary breakthrough but recognizing an elegant solution has already presented itself.
Re. Innovation & the 944: there are some parts of our cars that are beautifully done (the transmission, brakes, my God, the late dash/interiors are like modern art!) and some were not so well done as mentioned before. It WAS an entry level sportscar. It was tied to technology forged in the Audi E 425's concept, - though a Porsche design, it needed to be cheap and use existing VW parts. The argument that a 944 engine was half of a 928 engine bears some real truth. Still in it's evolution came some points of sheer Porsche brilliance. 16 years after it's arrival at the dealer and I still marvel at my car daily at it's performance. Entry level Porsche, I'm glad because if not for it, I would be driving some tattered 911SC or a very well sorted 914 because it's what I can afford. That said, I agree, the control arm guy should have been fired!
Re. Styling: I cant think of too many "reliable" cars that speak to my blood like my car. A Muria would be stellar, but come on - drive it to the car show -OK, but you cant get groceries in it. Then you need to drive a Camary 95% of the time like everyone else and what fun is that? The beauty of our cars is in their everyday enjoyability and it's truely elegant form balanced with it's amazing capabilities. It's not just the umph under the hood - and it's certainly not the "Crest" on the hood (status), it's those lines, those leather seats (ever SAT in a leather Porsche Sports seat?. . .drool). The reason a nice restraunt is $20 a plate is not because of the food served or the name in the phone book - It's the experience. I dont get that in my wifes 1G Eclipse turbo or my bosses new Cadillac, though some of their technology in stock form is ahead of my car and it's performance comparable on paper.
Re. Tuning and Tuners: I think you have to admit we have some tallented boutique entitys producing new stuff every year for our cars. Even the rotund hot-head form San Diego - have another donut - is offering some cool new product offerings for turbos and NA's alike (LSD's, Carbon fibre torque tubes. . .) There is real innovation going on in the 944 world. Look at the Guru guys - a true grass-roots solutuion provider born out of discussion off this very board with "If we build it, they will come" attitude. And the SFR supercharger and AMR's low boost turbo kits, though pricey, are solid attempts to provide improvement for US. Understand that the economy of scale diff. between a cold-air kit for a Civic and stuff for us means ours costs more. Deal with it - Innovation is still going on. One shop that is always in the import tuner magazines and such is Zeil motorsports in Downey. Jon, though he gets most of his $ from import tuning products (the folgers cans and wings) he totally digs Porsches and adapts the technology where he can. His JIC suspension stuff for 911, 993, 996 and 944 is really good stuff - and priced the same as kits for the 300Z 's and RX-7's. He had a booth at the big Ventura thing a couple weeks ago that hardly anyone paid attention to - I think because his stuff didnt say "Weltmeister" on it. My point is, it IS out there.
Oh, and I like the fact this thread has taken the turn it has because it scares me to think I would have to drive something else because my top 4 picks of available cars in the $10K range are all Porsches.
09-27-2002, 11:14 AM
#86
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[quote]Originally posted by iloveporsches:
<strong>
He attacked certain points of our 20 year old cars because they are prone to failure. The timing belts are terrible. The original waterpumps weren't the best design. The electric sunroof pieces (I love my mechanical one!) often brake. Relays go out. DME's die. I need new front seals. <img src="graemlins/cussing.gif" border="0" alt="[grrrrrrr]" />
These cars have problems, and most peopel buying them know it and accept it. The overall quality, fun factor, and feeling for these cars out weighs that...by a lot. <img src="graemlins/bigok.gif" border="0" alt="[thumbsup]" />
You're the blind fool by being upset that he's criticizing Porsche. If there was never any criticism, there would never be any innovation, and we'd still be driving around 924's. Lighten up, and quit being such a fanboy. Porsches have problems. So do all other cars. 944's just happen to have a few more because they are old. Now do shutup.
<img src="graemlins/soapbox.gif" border="0" alt="[soapbox]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>
I already said this was getting childish. I was not going to post anymore criticism, I understand what you're saying, but calm down. It's going to be ok.
<strong>
He attacked certain points of our 20 year old cars because they are prone to failure. The timing belts are terrible. The original waterpumps weren't the best design. The electric sunroof pieces (I love my mechanical one!) often brake. Relays go out. DME's die. I need new front seals. <img src="graemlins/cussing.gif" border="0" alt="[grrrrrrr]" />
These cars have problems, and most peopel buying them know it and accept it. The overall quality, fun factor, and feeling for these cars out weighs that...by a lot. <img src="graemlins/bigok.gif" border="0" alt="[thumbsup]" />
You're the blind fool by being upset that he's criticizing Porsche. If there was never any criticism, there would never be any innovation, and we'd still be driving around 924's. Lighten up, and quit being such a fanboy. Porsches have problems. So do all other cars. 944's just happen to have a few more because they are old. Now do shutup.
<img src="graemlins/soapbox.gif" border="0" alt="[soapbox]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>
I already said this was getting childish. I was not going to post anymore criticism, I understand what you're saying, but calm down. It's going to be ok.
09-27-2002, 06:34 PM
#87
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Well, for Matt Sheppard, Stuttgart951 and any others who still missed the original point of this off topic post, I originally was wondering why the "tuning" craze took off for Civics and such but the interest kind of fell off for Gulfs and Jettas and the like. I really really really had not intended for this to even remotely involve Porsches of any kind in any way, though I guess "our" cars do kind of fall under the VW catagory.
Can we close this thread now?
Can we close this thread now?
09-27-2002, 07:35 PM
#88
Burning Brakes
[quote]Originally posted by Manning:
<strong>Well, for Matt Sheppard, Stuttgart951 and any others who still missed the original point of this off topic post, I originally was wondering why the "tuning" craze took off for Civics and such but the interest kind of fell off for Gulfs and Jettas and the like. I really really really had not intended for this to even remotely involve Porsches of any kind in any way, though I guess "our" cars do kind of fall under the VW catagory.
Can we close this thread now?</strong><hr></blockquote>
We arent missing the point of the post - look what the thread turned into... those of us not responding of the title of the thread are responding to the other listers...
ON the topic of the thread, which has, at this point, become "boring" by comparison... in my area VW "rice" is just as prevelant as Jap "rice." Id say the average GTI:Civic ratio around here is about 2:3.
I will say however, that the VW owners put ALOT more REAL work into their cars. Where the average Civic/Integra/Subaru guy is proud of his CAI, muffler, body kit, painted hood to make it look like carbon fiber, and stickers... VW guys brag about turbos, driveshafts, gearing, coilovers, brakes, etc etc etc. The difference between the two is the realization of performance and the illusion of performance. Obviously this is not representative of the entire population... but Im sure even the most diehard Jap tuner wil admit that 95% of the ricers out there are doing nothing but embarressing themselves.
Most of these kids have seen The Fast and Furious a few too many times and Ive seen plenty of accidents due to the street behavior of these punks... now ask me again why I dont like/respect them?
<strong>Well, for Matt Sheppard, Stuttgart951 and any others who still missed the original point of this off topic post, I originally was wondering why the "tuning" craze took off for Civics and such but the interest kind of fell off for Gulfs and Jettas and the like. I really really really had not intended for this to even remotely involve Porsches of any kind in any way, though I guess "our" cars do kind of fall under the VW catagory.
Can we close this thread now?</strong><hr></blockquote>
We arent missing the point of the post - look what the thread turned into... those of us not responding of the title of the thread are responding to the other listers...
ON the topic of the thread, which has, at this point, become "boring" by comparison... in my area VW "rice" is just as prevelant as Jap "rice." Id say the average GTI:Civic ratio around here is about 2:3.
I will say however, that the VW owners put ALOT more REAL work into their cars. Where the average Civic/Integra/Subaru guy is proud of his CAI, muffler, body kit, painted hood to make it look like carbon fiber, and stickers... VW guys brag about turbos, driveshafts, gearing, coilovers, brakes, etc etc etc. The difference between the two is the realization of performance and the illusion of performance. Obviously this is not representative of the entire population... but Im sure even the most diehard Jap tuner wil admit that 95% of the ricers out there are doing nothing but embarressing themselves.
Most of these kids have seen The Fast and Furious a few too many times and Ive seen plenty of accidents due to the street behavior of these punks... now ask me again why I dont like/respect them?
