OT: Compact "tuning"? Asian versus German
09-24-2002, 12:19 PM
#31
Race Director
[quote]Originally posted by AutoXdriver:
<strong>Yes it does mean greater performance, and anyone who understands racing physics knows that.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Theoretically, yes. But FWD development has come a long way. What I'm saying is that just because a car is RWD does not mean it's a better performer than a FWD car.
[quote]Originally posted by AutoXdriver:
<strong>I can't speak to a stock Sentra SE-R keeping up with a stock 944 on the track but there could be enormous weight differences between these two cars.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
I'm not sure stock for stock, but in ITS race trim it's a little under 300 lbs. But the fact is, does it really matter? We could argue over beers all day and all night until our wives disown us, but as they say, "when the green flag drops, the bull**** stops."
[quote]Originally posted by AutoXdriver:
<strong>A good track car is a car that gives you the feedback you need to take it to the limit and hold it there so you you can be successful competing against other cars in your class, not cars that weigh a lot less.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
The SE-R and the 944 are both in ITS in SCCA. That's all I care about. But stock for stock they drive on the same track and are on equal footing. See previous mention about beers.
[quote]Originally posted by AutoXdriver:
<strong>You haven't driven a 944 yet. I think you might see the difference when you do.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
You're 100% correct. I haven't driven my 944 yet and there may indeed be a huge difference in feel. At the end of the day, finishing position is what matters to me.
[quote]Originally posted by AutoXdriver:
<strong>I owned a 93 NX2000 which has the SE-R engine and is lighter than even the Sentra.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Actually it's slightly heavier with even larger brakes than the Sentra. The platform is the same on a shorter wheelbase.
[quote]Originally posted by AutoXdriver:
<strong>I've always been impressed with that car and it will out accelerate a stock 944. It also has a limited slip as standard equipment which makes it great for autocross, etc. But at the end of the day it just doesn't hold a candle to the superb feel of the 944 which comes directly from the build quality.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
That's good to hear. BTW, have you had the NX on the track? Not for argument's sake, but if you get the opportunity, you'll probably be really impressed.
[quote]Originally posted by AutoXdriver:
<strong>Its not a sports car, its an economy car and you know it. And so does everyone else :-)</strong><hr></blockquote>
OK, if it pleases you, it's an economy car. An economy car that will hang right there with a sports car.
<strong>Yes it does mean greater performance, and anyone who understands racing physics knows that.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Theoretically, yes. But FWD development has come a long way. What I'm saying is that just because a car is RWD does not mean it's a better performer than a FWD car.
[quote]Originally posted by AutoXdriver:
<strong>I can't speak to a stock Sentra SE-R keeping up with a stock 944 on the track but there could be enormous weight differences between these two cars.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
I'm not sure stock for stock, but in ITS race trim it's a little under 300 lbs. But the fact is, does it really matter? We could argue over beers all day and all night until our wives disown us, but as they say, "when the green flag drops, the bull**** stops."
[quote]Originally posted by AutoXdriver:
<strong>A good track car is a car that gives you the feedback you need to take it to the limit and hold it there so you you can be successful competing against other cars in your class, not cars that weigh a lot less.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
The SE-R and the 944 are both in ITS in SCCA. That's all I care about. But stock for stock they drive on the same track and are on equal footing. See previous mention about beers.
[quote]Originally posted by AutoXdriver:
<strong>You haven't driven a 944 yet. I think you might see the difference when you do.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
You're 100% correct. I haven't driven my 944 yet and there may indeed be a huge difference in feel. At the end of the day, finishing position is what matters to me.
[quote]Originally posted by AutoXdriver:
<strong>I owned a 93 NX2000 which has the SE-R engine and is lighter than even the Sentra.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Actually it's slightly heavier with even larger brakes than the Sentra. The platform is the same on a shorter wheelbase.
[quote]Originally posted by AutoXdriver:
<strong>I've always been impressed with that car and it will out accelerate a stock 944. It also has a limited slip as standard equipment which makes it great for autocross, etc. But at the end of the day it just doesn't hold a candle to the superb feel of the 944 which comes directly from the build quality.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
That's good to hear. BTW, have you had the NX on the track? Not for argument's sake, but if you get the opportunity, you'll probably be really impressed.
[quote]Originally posted by AutoXdriver:
<strong>Its not a sports car, its an economy car and you know it. And so does everyone else :-)</strong><hr></blockquote>
OK, if it pleases you, it's an economy car. An economy car that will hang right there with a sports car.
09-24-2002, 12:51 PM
#32
Race Director
[quote]Originally posted by AutoXdriver:
<strong>Now that I've thought about it some more its even harder for me to believe the Sentra SE-R can out perform the 944 on the track, and I assume we are talking about a road course, not a drag strip. </strong><hr></blockquote>
Yep. Road course. I have less than zero interest in drag racing. Yuck. BTW, I did not say the SE-R or the NX will outpeform the 944. I said they are pretty much on equal terms.
Interestingly enough, I last night I happened to watch a video from a friend's race at Lime Rock on Memorial Day weekend. He finished 3rd on track, but was penalized 7 positions for being 12 lbs under weight. Dumb on his part, but the 12 lbs have virtually zero effect on his performance. What is of interest here is that he diced with a 944 all race long. The 944 did finish ahead of him, but other than for a few driving mistakes on his part (dropping wheels off), they were about as evenly matched as you'll find. He was driving his NX2000.
[quote]Originally posted by AutoXdriver:
<strong>On a road course however its hard to imagine without some driver input taken into account. The 944 has way better brakes than a sentra and even if the sentra is significantly lighter it shouldn't be able to handle much better if at all. I'm not saying its impossible but you can chalk me up as a skeptic until I see it for myself!</strong><hr></blockquote>
I think a Sentra SE-R with stock brakes would really surprise you. We can out brake all sorts of cars that would surprise you. With NX2000 brakes (illegal in ITS but a direct bolt-on), it'll really shock you.
I'm NOT trying to say the Sentra SE-R or NX2000 is better than a 944. This has been nice and polite and I hope it stays that way. I can understand skeptics. I only have used the SE-R and NX2000 as comparisons because I am quite familiar with them. I used them to illustrate that there are inexpensive Japanese cars that can hang with a 944. Someone brought up quality, but as far as the interior goes, that's a losing battle. I calls 'em as I see 'em. I own both and have worked on both. This one is no contest.
Bringing this back to Manning's question, there are lots of really solid platforms on which to build a high quality, truly high performance Japanese car. The folks in the Japanese car circles are just willing to keep developing them. They don't seem to believe "that's all you can get from it." They keep pushing the envelope. If you want to find where the greatest development is taking place in road car engines today, find out what is going on in import drag racing. I hate it, but I have to admit these guys are really pushing the envelope. Every year I think they've hit the ceiling, and every year they break clear through it.
Why is it the Japanese car folks are willing to free think a little more? I don't know. Perhaps it's because for the most part they start with less.
<strong>Now that I've thought about it some more its even harder for me to believe the Sentra SE-R can out perform the 944 on the track, and I assume we are talking about a road course, not a drag strip. </strong><hr></blockquote>
Yep. Road course. I have less than zero interest in drag racing. Yuck. BTW, I did not say the SE-R or the NX will outpeform the 944. I said they are pretty much on equal terms.
Interestingly enough, I last night I happened to watch a video from a friend's race at Lime Rock on Memorial Day weekend. He finished 3rd on track, but was penalized 7 positions for being 12 lbs under weight. Dumb on his part, but the 12 lbs have virtually zero effect on his performance. What is of interest here is that he diced with a 944 all race long. The 944 did finish ahead of him, but other than for a few driving mistakes on his part (dropping wheels off), they were about as evenly matched as you'll find. He was driving his NX2000.
[quote]Originally posted by AutoXdriver:
<strong>On a road course however its hard to imagine without some driver input taken into account. The 944 has way better brakes than a sentra and even if the sentra is significantly lighter it shouldn't be able to handle much better if at all. I'm not saying its impossible but you can chalk me up as a skeptic until I see it for myself!</strong><hr></blockquote>
I think a Sentra SE-R with stock brakes would really surprise you. We can out brake all sorts of cars that would surprise you. With NX2000 brakes (illegal in ITS but a direct bolt-on), it'll really shock you.
I'm NOT trying to say the Sentra SE-R or NX2000 is better than a 944. This has been nice and polite and I hope it stays that way. I can understand skeptics. I only have used the SE-R and NX2000 as comparisons because I am quite familiar with them. I used them to illustrate that there are inexpensive Japanese cars that can hang with a 944. Someone brought up quality, but as far as the interior goes, that's a losing battle. I calls 'em as I see 'em. I own both and have worked on both. This one is no contest.
Bringing this back to Manning's question, there are lots of really solid platforms on which to build a high quality, truly high performance Japanese car. The folks in the Japanese car circles are just willing to keep developing them. They don't seem to believe "that's all you can get from it." They keep pushing the envelope. If you want to find where the greatest development is taking place in road car engines today, find out what is going on in import drag racing. I hate it, but I have to admit these guys are really pushing the envelope. Every year I think they've hit the ceiling, and every year they break clear through it.
Why is it the Japanese car folks are willing to free think a little more? I don't know. Perhaps it's because for the most part they start with less.
09-24-2002, 02:41 PM
#34
geo, you make decent points, and maybe we are a little biased around here, but the 924/944 design is over 20 years old, and to this day this actual sports car can still compete with your brand new japanese stuff. so ha!
j/k, i like japanese performance also. <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />
j/k, i like japanese performance also. <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />
09-24-2002, 03:33 PM
#35
Race Director
Hey, that's bringing in another factor to try and rationalize your positions. Let's make a straight-across comparison regardless of model-year. Or compare identical model years then. I had an '86 Toyota Supra and compared to my '86 Porsche 951, I during the 245k-miles I drove that Supra, I NEVER had to replace the following:
- clutch (Supra had larger clutch than 951 with 33% less power)
- water pump (245K-miles on original water pump!)
- A-arm balljoints (Porsche engineer who spec. that should be FIRED!)
- brake-rotors (went through 5 sets of pads though)
- CV joints
- cam gasket/cam-cover gasket
- headgasket
- wheel-bearings
- cam-timing belts only every 100k-miles
Everything on the Supra was beefier, bigger, stronger. Yet the car weighs the same as a 951 at about 3000lbs. Ok, so the performance was more like a 944NA.
"What you won't find is better quality. I don't care how much high tech crap you throw on a Civic or a Sentra, they aren't going to handle and communicate to me like a 944 in the twisties."
But the point here is that both the Porsche and Japanese cars were DESIGNED to be the way they are. The Porsche was designed to have that sporty feel and handling while the Japanese was designed to have exactly the comfy feel that they have. It's not like Honda or Toyota or Nissan TRIED to emulate a Porsche and failed, they simply had different goals to begin with. Numerous comparison have been made where the NSX won out over the 911Turbo. Out-right performance may only reach 90-95% in instrumented tests. But the NSX had better steering 'feel' due to its electronic-assisted steering vs. the 911's hydraulic system.
And the construction quality IS apparent. Just compare the engine, head, cam-housing, intake-manifold castings. The Honda has a smooth surface with no mold-edge marks. No rough sand-casted finish like on our cars. Even a Civic has such high-quality castings.
- clutch (Supra had larger clutch than 951 with 33% less power)
- water pump (245K-miles on original water pump!)
- A-arm balljoints (Porsche engineer who spec. that should be FIRED!)
- brake-rotors (went through 5 sets of pads though)
- CV joints
- cam gasket/cam-cover gasket
- headgasket
- wheel-bearings
- cam-timing belts only every 100k-miles
Everything on the Supra was beefier, bigger, stronger. Yet the car weighs the same as a 951 at about 3000lbs. Ok, so the performance was more like a 944NA.
"What you won't find is better quality. I don't care how much high tech crap you throw on a Civic or a Sentra, they aren't going to handle and communicate to me like a 944 in the twisties."
But the point here is that both the Porsche and Japanese cars were DESIGNED to be the way they are. The Porsche was designed to have that sporty feel and handling while the Japanese was designed to have exactly the comfy feel that they have. It's not like Honda or Toyota or Nissan TRIED to emulate a Porsche and failed, they simply had different goals to begin with. Numerous comparison have been made where the NSX won out over the 911Turbo. Out-right performance may only reach 90-95% in instrumented tests. But the NSX had better steering 'feel' due to its electronic-assisted steering vs. the 911's hydraulic system.
And the construction quality IS apparent. Just compare the engine, head, cam-housing, intake-manifold castings. The Honda has a smooth surface with no mold-edge marks. No rough sand-casted finish like on our cars. Even a Civic has such high-quality castings.
09-24-2002, 03:44 PM
#36
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Damn people!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
You're not LISTENING to Geo. all you're hearing,or think you're hearing, is that he's saying the SR20 is superior...he's not!
This thread makes the point perfectly. Nobody's even willing open their minds if they "think" they here someone bashing the Porsche.
The Japanese have more CURRENT technology that can be applied to the superior HANDLING of the 944.
Blend them....you'll end up with a much better performing car in the end. Dont choose ONE over the other..open your minds (wallets),study whats currently being done with the rice motors in terms of engine performance and apply this to the 944.
OR...just keep on with the KKK turbo's,B&B exhsts and AutoAuthority chips and go as fast (slow) as everyone else at the track with the same tired old crap. this stuff was tired 5-7 years ago!
Who in their right mind would continue to flogg this old school junk when the rice guys are developing cutting edge performance modifications on a DAILY basis? who?! why?!
I think everyone feels that all they have to offer is neon windsheild squirters,cold air intakes and fiberglass bolt-ons.
I guess that if THIS is the attitude of most Porsche consumers...why should the Porsche tuners offer anything more? They should'nt and dont.
Lets be clear...I'm not touting the Japanese cars (although they aint no slouch's) but rather the Japanese performance technology and how it can be applied to the 944/951.
This is part of what Geo was saying before things got turned into Japanese CARS vs. Porsche CARS. It's Jap TECHNOLOGY vs. German TECHNOLOGY and how they can complement each other....
You're not LISTENING to Geo. all you're hearing,or think you're hearing, is that he's saying the SR20 is superior...he's not!
This thread makes the point perfectly. Nobody's even willing open their minds if they "think" they here someone bashing the Porsche.
The Japanese have more CURRENT technology that can be applied to the superior HANDLING of the 944.
Blend them....you'll end up with a much better performing car in the end. Dont choose ONE over the other..open your minds (wallets),study whats currently being done with the rice motors in terms of engine performance and apply this to the 944.
OR...just keep on with the KKK turbo's,B&B exhsts and AutoAuthority chips and go as fast (slow) as everyone else at the track with the same tired old crap. this stuff was tired 5-7 years ago!
Who in their right mind would continue to flogg this old school junk when the rice guys are developing cutting edge performance modifications on a DAILY basis? who?! why?!
I think everyone feels that all they have to offer is neon windsheild squirters,cold air intakes and fiberglass bolt-ons.
I guess that if THIS is the attitude of most Porsche consumers...why should the Porsche tuners offer anything more? They should'nt and dont.
Lets be clear...I'm not touting the Japanese cars (although they aint no slouch's) but rather the Japanese performance technology and how it can be applied to the 944/951.
This is part of what Geo was saying before things got turned into Japanese CARS vs. Porsche CARS. It's Jap TECHNOLOGY vs. German TECHNOLOGY and how they can complement each other....
09-24-2002, 04:18 PM
#37
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[quote]Originally posted by Geo:
<strong>
No, the interior quality of the Nissan isn't even close to the quality of the 944. It's considerably better than that of the 944.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Sounds like somebody got a lemon of a car and is trying to push your single experience with it off as how every one of them is. NO Nissan 240, 300Z, and especially no Sentra has felt anything besides cheap when compared to the German leather and everything else. You have the old style interior. Like I said, find me a 20 year old Nissan and show me the higher quality stuff in that. You're doing the same thing too many people do and that's compare the 20 year old 944 stuff to things around 5 years old or newer and try and push it off an a valid argument.
Yes a 2001 VTEC Honda can outrun a 944 NA..fine..can a 1983 Civic do the same to an '83 944? Not likely, and it sure won't outhandle it. Different cars for different purposes entirely. FWD technology has come a long way but I personally can't stand having the steering wheel fight me, and I don't see how anybody can. My sister's '96 Eclipse it handles pretty decently, but it's no 944 and my brother's '84 Na will outrun that thing easily. And the "force feedback" steering if you will, is not something I particularly like.
Yes, Japanese technology has come a long way, especially lately, and I'm not arguing that. But for P cars 15-20 years old holding their own against things with 10+ more years of development I say that's damn good.
<strong>
No, the interior quality of the Nissan isn't even close to the quality of the 944. It's considerably better than that of the 944.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Sounds like somebody got a lemon of a car and is trying to push your single experience with it off as how every one of them is. NO Nissan 240, 300Z, and especially no Sentra has felt anything besides cheap when compared to the German leather and everything else. You have the old style interior. Like I said, find me a 20 year old Nissan and show me the higher quality stuff in that. You're doing the same thing too many people do and that's compare the 20 year old 944 stuff to things around 5 years old or newer and try and push it off an a valid argument.
Yes a 2001 VTEC Honda can outrun a 944 NA..fine..can a 1983 Civic do the same to an '83 944? Not likely, and it sure won't outhandle it. Different cars for different purposes entirely. FWD technology has come a long way but I personally can't stand having the steering wheel fight me, and I don't see how anybody can. My sister's '96 Eclipse it handles pretty decently, but it's no 944 and my brother's '84 Na will outrun that thing easily. And the "force feedback" steering if you will, is not something I particularly like.
Yes, Japanese technology has come a long way, especially lately, and I'm not arguing that. But for P cars 15-20 years old holding their own against things with 10+ more years of development I say that's damn good.
09-24-2002, 07:00 PM
#38
Race Director
[quote]Originally posted by dave120:
<strong>Sounds like somebody got a lemon of a car and is trying to push your single experience with it off as how every one of them is.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
No, that's not it Dave. Actually, I pulled my car from a bone yard. It was straight and complete, and apparently had been pretty well cared for at one time.
What I'm comparing is the materials used and the methods used to secure them. I have no idea if my car was a lemon or a creampuff.
[quote]Originally posted by dave120:
<strong>NO Nissan 240, 300Z, and especially no Sentra has felt anything besides cheap when compared to the German leather and everything else.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
I'm not going to convince you and that's fine. Really. I just don't think you have an open mind here.
[quote]Originally posted by dave120:
<strong>You have the old style interior.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Not anymore.
[quote]Originally posted by dave120:
<strong>Like I said, find me a 20 year old Nissan and show me the higher quality stuff in that. You're doing the same thing too many people do and that's compare the 20 year old 944 stuff to things around 5 years old or newer and try and push it off an a valid argument.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Whoa. Hold the phone partner. My Sentra SE-R and my Infiniti G20 are both 12 years old now. Not as old as my 944, but much older than you are suggesting. Then again, I don't know if you are accusing me of doing this, but on the surface it seems that way.
[quote]Originally posted by dave120:
<strong>Yes, Japanese technology has come a long way, especially lately, and I'm not arguing that. But for P cars 15-20 years old holding their own against things with 10+ more years of development I say that's damn good.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Hell yes. No question. However, that was never the point of the original discussion. I also didn't bring up the subject of quality.
Like I said, I'm not trying to diss one and praise the other. I'm not trying to turn this into a forum to praise the SE-R or any other car except the 944. Please believe me. I've wanted a 944 since they were first announced. For me it has always been the benchmark that I compare other reasonably affordable cars to, even to this day. Despite what some folks here suggest about the 944 never being a particularly fast car, I say they are wrong. When it was introduced 20 years ago there were too few cars that could compare, let along for the same price or less.
<strong>Sounds like somebody got a lemon of a car and is trying to push your single experience with it off as how every one of them is.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
No, that's not it Dave. Actually, I pulled my car from a bone yard. It was straight and complete, and apparently had been pretty well cared for at one time.
What I'm comparing is the materials used and the methods used to secure them. I have no idea if my car was a lemon or a creampuff.
[quote]Originally posted by dave120:
<strong>NO Nissan 240, 300Z, and especially no Sentra has felt anything besides cheap when compared to the German leather and everything else.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
I'm not going to convince you and that's fine. Really. I just don't think you have an open mind here.
[quote]Originally posted by dave120:
<strong>You have the old style interior.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Not anymore.
[quote]Originally posted by dave120:
<strong>Like I said, find me a 20 year old Nissan and show me the higher quality stuff in that. You're doing the same thing too many people do and that's compare the 20 year old 944 stuff to things around 5 years old or newer and try and push it off an a valid argument.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Whoa. Hold the phone partner. My Sentra SE-R and my Infiniti G20 are both 12 years old now. Not as old as my 944, but much older than you are suggesting. Then again, I don't know if you are accusing me of doing this, but on the surface it seems that way.
[quote]Originally posted by dave120:
<strong>Yes, Japanese technology has come a long way, especially lately, and I'm not arguing that. But for P cars 15-20 years old holding their own against things with 10+ more years of development I say that's damn good.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Hell yes. No question. However, that was never the point of the original discussion. I also didn't bring up the subject of quality.
Like I said, I'm not trying to diss one and praise the other. I'm not trying to turn this into a forum to praise the SE-R or any other car except the 944. Please believe me. I've wanted a 944 since they were first announced. For me it has always been the benchmark that I compare other reasonably affordable cars to, even to this day. Despite what some folks here suggest about the 944 never being a particularly fast car, I say they are wrong. When it was introduced 20 years ago there were too few cars that could compare, let along for the same price or less.
09-24-2002, 07:15 PM
#39
Race Director
[quote]Originally posted by RS 2.7:
<strong>geo, you make decent points, and maybe we are a little biased around here, but the 924/944 design is over 20 years old, and to this day this actual sports car can still compete with your brand new japanese stuff. so ha!
j/k, i like japanese performance also. <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>
Hehe. I expect people to be biased. Emotions play into our car buy decisions as enthusiasts. But, if you look back, other than the quality of the interior materials and the way they are attached (and then in response to a comment about quality), I've not said one bad thing about the 944.
I think the 944 is still the benchmark for a reasonably affordable sports car or sports oriented car or whatever.
<strong>geo, you make decent points, and maybe we are a little biased around here, but the 924/944 design is over 20 years old, and to this day this actual sports car can still compete with your brand new japanese stuff. so ha!
j/k, i like japanese performance also. <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>
Hehe. I expect people to be biased. Emotions play into our car buy decisions as enthusiasts. But, if you look back, other than the quality of the interior materials and the way they are attached (and then in response to a comment about quality), I've not said one bad thing about the 944.
I think the 944 is still the benchmark for a reasonably affordable sports car or sports oriented car or whatever.
09-24-2002, 07:20 PM
#40
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You make very valid points. But you do have to remember the company you're in here. We tend to be a bit biased. You're right a bit close minded I definately was about the above. But that doesn't change my opinnion on it 
I'm just stating my observations, same as you.
But I do have to say I'm not completely oblivious to the world outside of Porsche, as I only got intot his world a couple years ago. And I do have many friends into the "import scene" some do the stereotype ricer hack jobs and others make respectable running cars out of them. One of them has a "real" Integra Type R and it's not a bad car. It's no S2 like mine but it's decent. I don't see how it could try and brake like I do from 130 lap after lap, I don't see that happening. Speeds over 100 he can't hang with me either even tho the hp numbers are probably pretty close and he has less weight to push.
But I have seen some "rice" that would tear my car a new one in a straight line..well, depends show long of one because I haven't seen one go 150+ yet, although I don't deal much with some of the more high $$ modded ones.
Some can probably outhandle it too, I don't deny that. Your typical rice you see around town with the 3 ft aluminum wing, body kit and euro tail lights isn't going to be the guy that beats me though. With them it's basically all show and no go or exactly the opposite. Closed minded about some things, sure, I am, and everybody is at some point. But I didn't say all those cars are trash or anything to indicate that. However, being aware of all these things, I still choose my 944 over just about anything else, like most people here.
And I hear time and time again, mechanics or the average guy say he'd rather work on a Honda than a Porsche. WHY?!? I've worked on a lot of stuff and this 944 is a DREAM compared to everything else. Maybe it's all the guys talking about the turbos being a pain and it's things that aren't as hard on an S2? Last I checked it's the Honda with a 13mm here and a 5/8 there. I can take half my car apart with a 8, 10, 12, and 14 mm wrench. No standard and metric switching like all the Japanese/Domestics.
I don't get that at all yet I hear it so many times here that the Japenese cars are EASIER to work on than the Porsche. I've had no experiences where that was the case. But now I'm <img src="graemlins/offtopic.gif" border="0" alt="[offtopic]" /> so I'll stop now
I'm just stating my observations, same as you.But I do have to say I'm not completely oblivious to the world outside of Porsche, as I only got intot his world a couple years ago. And I do have many friends into the "import scene" some do the stereotype ricer hack jobs and others make respectable running cars out of them. One of them has a "real" Integra Type R and it's not a bad car. It's no S2 like mine but it's decent. I don't see how it could try and brake like I do from 130 lap after lap, I don't see that happening. Speeds over 100 he can't hang with me either even tho the hp numbers are probably pretty close and he has less weight to push.
But I have seen some "rice" that would tear my car a new one in a straight line..well, depends show long of one because I haven't seen one go 150+ yet, although I don't deal much with some of the more high $$ modded ones.
Some can probably outhandle it too, I don't deny that. Your typical rice you see around town with the 3 ft aluminum wing, body kit and euro tail lights isn't going to be the guy that beats me though. With them it's basically all show and no go or exactly the opposite. Closed minded about some things, sure, I am, and everybody is at some point. But I didn't say all those cars are trash or anything to indicate that. However, being aware of all these things, I still choose my 944 over just about anything else, like most people here.
And I hear time and time again, mechanics or the average guy say he'd rather work on a Honda than a Porsche. WHY?!? I've worked on a lot of stuff and this 944 is a DREAM compared to everything else. Maybe it's all the guys talking about the turbos being a pain and it's things that aren't as hard on an S2? Last I checked it's the Honda with a 13mm here and a 5/8 there. I can take half my car apart with a 8, 10, 12, and 14 mm wrench. No standard and metric switching like all the Japanese/Domestics.
I don't get that at all yet I hear it so many times here that the Japenese cars are EASIER to work on than the Porsche. I've had no experiences where that was the case. But now I'm <img src="graemlins/offtopic.gif" border="0" alt="[offtopic]" /> so I'll stop now
09-24-2002, 07:23 PM
#41
Race Director
[quote]Originally posted by QUICK'44:
<strong>Damn people!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
You're not LISTENING to Geo. all you're hearing,or think you're hearing, is that he's saying the SR20 is superior...he's not!
This thread makes the point perfectly. Nobody's even willing open their minds if they "think" they here someone bashing the Porsche.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Exactly right on all counts.
[quote]Originally posted by QUICK'44:
<strong> I think everyone feels that all they have to offer is neon windsheild squirters,cold air intakes and fiberglass bolt-ons.
I guess that if THIS is the attitude of most Porsche consumers...why should the Porsche tuners offer anything more? They should'nt and dont.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Again, exactly right. The original question is why the huge growth in the Japanese "tuner" market vs. the European "tuner" market?
I'll assure you that as many suspect, there are lots of ricers who are into the neon crap, grotesque body kits (well, the Japanese don't have anything on the Germans there though), large exhaust tips, etc. But I'll also assure you that there are a lot of incredibly knowledgeable folks out there tuning these cars that have no interest in the ricey stuff and are doing great things to increase performance. One of the biggest differences between the European and the Japanese car enthusiast communities is there Japanese car community does seem to embrace new technology and new information much more readily and it shows in the gains they are making.
<strong>Damn people!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
You're not LISTENING to Geo. all you're hearing,or think you're hearing, is that he's saying the SR20 is superior...he's not!
This thread makes the point perfectly. Nobody's even willing open their minds if they "think" they here someone bashing the Porsche.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Exactly right on all counts.
[quote]Originally posted by QUICK'44:
<strong> I think everyone feels that all they have to offer is neon windsheild squirters,cold air intakes and fiberglass bolt-ons.
I guess that if THIS is the attitude of most Porsche consumers...why should the Porsche tuners offer anything more? They should'nt and dont.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Again, exactly right. The original question is why the huge growth in the Japanese "tuner" market vs. the European "tuner" market?
I'll assure you that as many suspect, there are lots of ricers who are into the neon crap, grotesque body kits (well, the Japanese don't have anything on the Germans there though), large exhaust tips, etc. But I'll also assure you that there are a lot of incredibly knowledgeable folks out there tuning these cars that have no interest in the ricey stuff and are doing great things to increase performance. One of the biggest differences between the European and the Japanese car enthusiast communities is there Japanese car community does seem to embrace new technology and new information much more readily and it shows in the gains they are making.
09-24-2002, 07:24 PM
#42
Race Director
Geo..... No Need to defend you actions to me. I see and understand your point. You have always seemed to be level headed guy talking from alot experience and a little emotion. Some of the guys on this board talk from emotion more than experience. This last statment was not intended knock on anyone just reality.
Honestly we Rennlisters are often Die Hard Porsche People and that can often make us see through "Guards Red" glasses. It good every now and then to get brought back to the real world. Some guys just don't like to hear it.
Honestly when I read the 951S vs 930 artical Danno poseted it hit home on alot of the points Geo made.
Even in 1988 they said the 930 was "old technology" and 951 was "new technology". One person even commented on how the 930 was at the end of its development while the 944 Turbo was still at the beginning..... To bad the writer was wrong
My only QUESTION for Geo is this..... When are you going to get some of the ricer technology into the 944 NA??? Hmm.... is a 300 bhp 2.5L 16v varible valve timing and lift 9000 rpm redline motor a possiblity???? You know Honda S2000 (120 bhp/L) style??
That would be Saurkraut & Rice Dish I would LOVE to try!
I see and understand your point. You have always seemed to be level headed guy talking from alot experience and a little emotion. Some of the guys on this board talk from emotion more than experience. This last statment was not intended knock on anyone just reality. Honestly we Rennlisters are often Die Hard Porsche People and that can often make us see through "Guards Red" glasses. It good every now and then to get brought back to the real world. Some guys just don't like to hear it.
Honestly when I read the 951S vs 930 artical Danno poseted it hit home on alot of the points Geo made.
Even in 1988 they said the 930 was "old technology" and 951 was "new technology". One person even commented on how the 930 was at the end of its development while the 944 Turbo was still at the beginning..... To bad the writer was wrong
My only QUESTION for Geo is this..... When are you going to get some of the ricer technology into the 944 NA??? Hmm.... is a 300 bhp 2.5L 16v varible valve timing and lift 9000 rpm redline motor a possiblity???? You know Honda S2000 (120 bhp/L) style??
That would be Saurkraut & Rice Dish I would LOVE to try!
09-24-2002, 07:31 PM
#43
Race Director
[quote]Originally posted by dave120:
<strong>Your typical rice you see around town with the 3 ft aluminum wing, body kit and euro tail lights isn't going to be the guy that beats me though.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Hehe. So true. Be assured that what I call the real enthusiasts in the Japanese car circles also get a good laugh out of those cars. So often I add up the cost of all the silly cosmetic stuff and then start adding up what he could have bought in performance parts for the same money. IMHO 99% of those ricers are an embarrassment. There are 1% that are so amazing and so well done I have to admire the craftsmanship.
<strong>Your typical rice you see around town with the 3 ft aluminum wing, body kit and euro tail lights isn't going to be the guy that beats me though.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Hehe. So true. Be assured that what I call the real enthusiasts in the Japanese car circles also get a good laugh out of those cars. So often I add up the cost of all the silly cosmetic stuff and then start adding up what he could have bought in performance parts for the same money. IMHO 99% of those ricers are an embarrassment. There are 1% that are so amazing and so well done I have to admire the craftsmanship.
09-24-2002, 07:38 PM
#44
Race Director
[quote]Originally posted by dave120:
<strong>And I do have many friends into the "import scene" some do the stereotype ricer hack jobs and others make respectable running cars out of them. One of them has a "real" Integra Type R and it's not a bad car.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Dave120 Gotta agree with you on this. I think that most of us have a problem with the sterotypical hack job guys and tend to over look the ones who are doing it right. I have to admit that hearing those little Acura Motors spun up so heavily is amazing. Kind of remindes me of F1 at little. There was a Acura Type R (not sure if it was real) at the Track Event this Weekend. Heard it on the track and looked. I was really embarssed to see that I got all excited about a juiced up Honda with fat exhaust pipe
! Oh well at least it sounded good and he was on race track.
Seemed to hold his own just fine.
If only the "only for show" crowd would pack it in... I really think that they are giving real Japanese Tuners a Bad Name.
<strong>And I do have many friends into the "import scene" some do the stereotype ricer hack jobs and others make respectable running cars out of them. One of them has a "real" Integra Type R and it's not a bad car.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Dave120 Gotta agree with you on this. I think that most of us have a problem with the sterotypical hack job guys and tend to over look the ones who are doing it right. I have to admit that hearing those little Acura Motors spun up so heavily is amazing. Kind of remindes me of F1 at little. There was a Acura Type R (not sure if it was real) at the Track Event this Weekend. Heard it on the track and looked. I was really embarssed to see that I got all excited about a juiced up Honda with fat exhaust pipe
! Oh well at least it sounded good and he was on race track.Seemed to hold his own just fine.
If only the "only for show" crowd would pack it in... I really think that they are giving real Japanese Tuners a Bad Name.
09-24-2002, 07:39 PM
#45
Drifting
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[quote]Originally posted by Geo:
<strong>
Hehe. So true. Be assured that what I call the real enthusiasts in the Japanese car circles also get a good laugh out of those cars. So often I add up the cost of all the silly cosmetic stuff and then start adding up what he could have bought in performance parts for the same money. IMHO 99% of those ricers are an embarrassment. There are 1% that are so amazing and so well done I have to admire the craftsmanship. </strong><hr></blockquote>
The real "tuners" do get a laugh out of those guys. What's even more funny is that they claim they run these low 1/4 mile #'s and when asked to take it to the track they come up with some lame excuse.
This kid I know with a '93 Sentra with a '98 Sentra motor (NOT SE-R) claims his engine makes too much torque that if he drops the clutch hard his drive shaft will break. His exact words. Last I checked those things aren't torque monsters and I doubt the ~120 ft lbs he's probably putting down will hurt that car at all. But the funniest part..it's FWD! Drive SHAFT? I don't think he has any clue what he's talkin about. But he runs low 14's and with a chip and headers he'll drop to 13.2. Uh huh...
"Ricers" do get all generally get grouped together regardless of their approach to them and the ones that do it right get looked on the same as others. But that happens with just about anything. Only takes a few to drag down everyone. Although the serious ones are in the minority for the most part I think.
<strong>
Hehe. So true. Be assured that what I call the real enthusiasts in the Japanese car circles also get a good laugh out of those cars. So often I add up the cost of all the silly cosmetic stuff and then start adding up what he could have bought in performance parts for the same money. IMHO 99% of those ricers are an embarrassment. There are 1% that are so amazing and so well done I have to admire the craftsmanship.
</strong><hr></blockquote>The real "tuners" do get a laugh out of those guys. What's even more funny is that they claim they run these low 1/4 mile #'s and when asked to take it to the track they come up with some lame excuse.
This kid I know with a '93 Sentra with a '98 Sentra motor (NOT SE-R) claims his engine makes too much torque that if he drops the clutch hard his drive shaft will break. His exact words. Last I checked those things aren't torque monsters and I doubt the ~120 ft lbs he's probably putting down will hurt that car at all. But the funniest part..it's FWD! Drive SHAFT? I don't think he has any clue what he's talkin about. But he runs low 14's and with a chip and headers he'll drop to 13.2. Uh huh...
"Ricers" do get all generally get grouped together regardless of their approach to them and the ones that do it right get looked on the same as others. But that happens with just about anything. Only takes a few to drag down everyone. Although the serious ones are in the minority for the most part I think.