OT: Compact "tuning"? Asian versus German
09-23-2002 | 10:49 PM
#16
Race Director
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 17,643
Likes: 8
From: Phoenix, Az
Here is my take,
Currently the "Tuner" scene is driven by the same type of people as started the "Hot Rod" Scene back in the 50's & 60's.
The formula is simple. Take common everyday cars that a cheap and plenty full and make them as fast as possible. In general this mostly applies to engine mods. The reason the Japanese cars are popular is that they are plentyfull relativly cheap and provide a solid foundation for upgrades.
Now Porshce 944 vs Japanese cars.... Well my mom's 98 Nissan Frontier's 2.4L 16valve motor puts out 143hp.... Hmm 944 2.5L... 143 hp???
Ok the truck us years newer, but point is that these cars are not cutting edge anymore. Infact the entire 924/944 line is not cutting edge. Lets face it Porsche just went to 4vales per cylinder and watercooling in their flagship just a few years ago.
Like it or not Most German Manufactures are very limited in terms of Engine & Chassis design. That is not to say bad, but they tend to evoluationray vs revolutionary. Yes there are alot of cutting edge technology coming from the Japanese factories. That along with market demand creates a significant aftermarket parts business. Competition spurs further development.
Porsche & the 8v 944 in general do not have that demand. Therefore less parts exist. Also tuners & owners are less willing to experiment due to costs. High standard parts costs +fewer junkyard parts avalible + lower potential sales = Higher Risk to try new things = Fewer go fast parts and more conservative engine programs.
I do think the aftermarkt road racing support network is really quite good considering the low volume of cars produced.
That said the 8v 944 was never an engine power house nor meant to be technological tour-de-force. It was and ENTRY level car and much of the technology put in to it was derived or taken directly from other cars both Porsche and Non-Porsche a like.
Then again compare a 8v 944 to an RX-7 From the same time period...
Doing my First 944-spec race this weekend I had to remember that we were racing cars that were mostly stock and 14-19 years old!
Heck some you on this board are younger than that!
Lest not forget that we are comparing vertble antiques to Modern Cars.. In that respect I think the 944 and especially the 944 Turbo stand up pretty well.
Currently the "Tuner" scene is driven by the same type of people as started the "Hot Rod" Scene back in the 50's & 60's.
The formula is simple. Take common everyday cars that a cheap and plenty full and make them as fast as possible. In general this mostly applies to engine mods. The reason the Japanese cars are popular is that they are plentyfull relativly cheap and provide a solid foundation for upgrades.
Now Porshce 944 vs Japanese cars.... Well my mom's 98 Nissan Frontier's 2.4L 16valve motor puts out 143hp.... Hmm 944 2.5L... 143 hp???
Ok the truck us years newer, but point is that these cars are not cutting edge anymore. Infact the entire 924/944 line is not cutting edge. Lets face it Porsche just went to 4vales per cylinder and watercooling in their flagship just a few years ago.
Like it or not Most German Manufactures are very limited in terms of Engine & Chassis design. That is not to say bad, but they tend to evoluationray vs revolutionary. Yes there are alot of cutting edge technology coming from the Japanese factories. That along with market demand creates a significant aftermarket parts business. Competition spurs further development.
Porsche & the 8v 944 in general do not have that demand. Therefore less parts exist. Also tuners & owners are less willing to experiment due to costs. High standard parts costs +fewer junkyard parts avalible + lower potential sales = Higher Risk to try new things = Fewer go fast parts and more conservative engine programs.
I do think the aftermarkt road racing support network is really quite good considering the low volume of cars produced.
That said the 8v 944 was never an engine power house nor meant to be technological tour-de-force. It was and ENTRY level car and much of the technology put in to it was derived or taken directly from other cars both Porsche and Non-Porsche a like.
Then again compare a 8v 944 to an RX-7 From the same time period...
Doing my First 944-spec race this weekend I had to remember that we were racing cars that were mostly stock and 14-19 years old!
Heck some you on this board are younger than that!
Lest not forget that we are comparing vertble antiques to Modern Cars.. In that respect I think the 944 and especially the 944 Turbo stand up pretty well.
09-23-2002 | 11:28 PM
#17
Race Director
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 14,075
Likes: 3
From: Santa Barbara, CA
I think it may be erroneous to lump all those cars together as 'Japanese'. Because there's a tremendous difference in the design philosophy of Honda compared to Toyota. This affects the resultant products they produce, how you tune it and how you improve upon it. Actually, I think there's more similarities between a Porsche and a Toyota than between either one with a Honda.
09-23-2002 | 11:43 PM
#18
Race Director
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 10,033
Likes: 1
From: Houston, TX USA
[quote]Originally posted by Danno:
<strong>I think it may be erroneous to lump all those cars together as 'Japanese'. Because there's a tremendous difference in the design philosophy of Honda compared to Toyota. This affects the resultant products they produce, how you tune it and how you improve upon it. Actually, I think there's more similarities between a Porsche and a Toyota than between either one with a Honda.</strong><hr></blockquote>
True enough. But, the fact remains that is much more development going on with Japanese cars than European cars - at least in this country. Honduhs aren't the only Japanese cars being heavily modified.
Think about this.....
How many times have people asked about putting a turbo on an NA 8v 944 and how many times have people been told it can't be done or they need to recreate a 951 or some other garbage? You don't get that response in the Japanese car community.
<strong>I think it may be erroneous to lump all those cars together as 'Japanese'. Because there's a tremendous difference in the design philosophy of Honda compared to Toyota. This affects the resultant products they produce, how you tune it and how you improve upon it. Actually, I think there's more similarities between a Porsche and a Toyota than between either one with a Honda.</strong><hr></blockquote>
True enough. But, the fact remains that is much more development going on with Japanese cars than European cars - at least in this country. Honduhs aren't the only Japanese cars being heavily modified.
Think about this.....
How many times have people asked about putting a turbo on an NA 8v 944 and how many times have people been told it can't be done or they need to recreate a 951 or some other garbage? You don't get that response in the Japanese car community.
09-24-2002 | 01:46 AM
#19
Instructor
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 149
Likes: 0
From: Cary, NC USA
My $.02:
A lot has been made in this thread about the superior technology and even engineering from the japanese tuners. I can't argue that, but let's remember whats being compared here is the tuner/aftermarket engineering, not so much the cars themselves. And sure if you tear apart a 944 and compare certain pieces to more modern japanese (or other country's) car parts you will find more modern, more efficient and therefore "better" engineering.
What you won't find is better quality. I don't care how much high tech crap you throw on a Civic or a Sentra, they aren't going to handle and communicate to me like a 944 in the twisties. I can go out and buy a Camaro SS for less than it probably would cost me to get the same HP in a rice rocket (and hey it would have tourque too and sound a lot better) and have a fast car. Sports cars however are about subtle communication, which requires a stiff, quality engineered chassis that you are NOT going to find in a FWD grocery getter economy car. You can keep your screaming japanese hand grenades, and I'll keep my sports car ;-)
That said, I did love my 93 Z, it was very well balanced and communicated nicely, but it was a $35K car too. I still prefer the 944 though.
A lot has been made in this thread about the superior technology and even engineering from the japanese tuners. I can't argue that, but let's remember whats being compared here is the tuner/aftermarket engineering, not so much the cars themselves. And sure if you tear apart a 944 and compare certain pieces to more modern japanese (or other country's) car parts you will find more modern, more efficient and therefore "better" engineering.
What you won't find is better quality. I don't care how much high tech crap you throw on a Civic or a Sentra, they aren't going to handle and communicate to me like a 944 in the twisties. I can go out and buy a Camaro SS for less than it probably would cost me to get the same HP in a rice rocket (and hey it would have tourque too and sound a lot better) and have a fast car. Sports cars however are about subtle communication, which requires a stiff, quality engineered chassis that you are NOT going to find in a FWD grocery getter economy car. You can keep your screaming japanese hand grenades, and I'll keep my sports car ;-)
That said, I did love my 93 Z, it was very well balanced and communicated nicely, but it was a $35K car too. I still prefer the 944 though.
09-24-2002 | 03:00 AM
#20
Race Director
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 10,033
Likes: 1
From: Houston, TX USA
[quote]Originally posted by AutoXdriver:
<strong>What you won't find is better quality.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Not true. The quality of materials in the interior of my 84 944 were pretty awful. I tried very hard to preserve all of the components I removed from my car with little success. The flimsy excuse for a headliner didn't even pretend to come off intact. It ripped immediately. Given how cheap and thin it was, that is not surprising. What was surprising was that even the bloody carpet ripped. One spot was being only slightly difficult and the damned thing just tore. Incredible. And what's with the fact that half the interior is held together with tape and glue? I mean, the bloody wiring harness is just taped into place.
[quote]Originally posted by AutoXdriver:
<strong>I don't care how much high tech crap you throw on a Civic or a Sentra, they aren't going to handle and communicate to me like a 944 in the twisties.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I think you would be rather surprised. A stock Sentra SE-R is very evenly matched with a stock 944 on a race track. Same with equally prepared race cars. I've seen it. I can't speak to the issue of communication (I haven't driven my 944 yet), but I do know the SE-R is very easy to drive fast on the track, even in the hands of newbies.
You can believe me or not. It doesn't matter to me. I'm not here to diss the 944, Porsche, or European cars in general. Manning asked a question and given that I walk in both camps, I tried to give a forthright answer. If you want to believe a Sentra or Civic could not be as fast, easy to drive, communicate as well as a 944, all I can say is ignorance is bliss. The 944 is a great car. There are other great cars out there and some of them are disguised as grocery getters.
<strong>What you won't find is better quality.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Not true. The quality of materials in the interior of my 84 944 were pretty awful. I tried very hard to preserve all of the components I removed from my car with little success. The flimsy excuse for a headliner didn't even pretend to come off intact. It ripped immediately. Given how cheap and thin it was, that is not surprising. What was surprising was that even the bloody carpet ripped. One spot was being only slightly difficult and the damned thing just tore. Incredible. And what's with the fact that half the interior is held together with tape and glue? I mean, the bloody wiring harness is just taped into place.
[quote]Originally posted by AutoXdriver:
<strong>I don't care how much high tech crap you throw on a Civic or a Sentra, they aren't going to handle and communicate to me like a 944 in the twisties.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I think you would be rather surprised. A stock Sentra SE-R is very evenly matched with a stock 944 on a race track. Same with equally prepared race cars. I've seen it. I can't speak to the issue of communication (I haven't driven my 944 yet), but I do know the SE-R is very easy to drive fast on the track, even in the hands of newbies.
You can believe me or not. It doesn't matter to me. I'm not here to diss the 944, Porsche, or European cars in general. Manning asked a question and given that I walk in both camps, I tried to give a forthright answer. If you want to believe a Sentra or Civic could not be as fast, easy to drive, communicate as well as a 944, all I can say is ignorance is bliss. The 944 is a great car. There are other great cars out there and some of them are disguised as grocery getters.
09-24-2002 | 09:17 AM
#21
Drifting
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 2,258
Likes: 0
From: Central Florida
[quote]Originally posted by Geo:
<strong>
Not true. The quality of materials in the interior of my 84 944 were pretty awful. I tried very hard to preserve all of the components I removed from my car with little success. The flimsy excuse for a headliner didn't even pretend to come off intact. It ripped immediately. Given how cheap and thin it was, that is not surprising. What was surprising was that even the bloody carpet ripped. One spot was being only slightly difficult and the damned thing just tore. Incredible. And what's with the fact that half the interior is held together with tape and glue? I mean, the bloody wiring harness is just taped into place.</strong><hr></blockquote>
You're gonna try and tell us that the interior quality of a new economy car is anywhere close to the interior quality of these 944s? I'm sorry but that's one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard. You're talking about durability in your '84 and I dare you to find a 20 year old Honda or Nissan that's not going to have worse problems. The interior of my car is one of the biggest things I have yet to find a decent competitor for besides a 993.
<strong>
Not true. The quality of materials in the interior of my 84 944 were pretty awful. I tried very hard to preserve all of the components I removed from my car with little success. The flimsy excuse for a headliner didn't even pretend to come off intact. It ripped immediately. Given how cheap and thin it was, that is not surprising. What was surprising was that even the bloody carpet ripped. One spot was being only slightly difficult and the damned thing just tore. Incredible. And what's with the fact that half the interior is held together with tape and glue? I mean, the bloody wiring harness is just taped into place.</strong><hr></blockquote>
You're gonna try and tell us that the interior quality of a new economy car is anywhere close to the interior quality of these 944s? I'm sorry but that's one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard. You're talking about durability in your '84 and I dare you to find a 20 year old Honda or Nissan that's not going to have worse problems. The interior of my car is one of the biggest things I have yet to find a decent competitor for besides a 993.
09-24-2002 | 09:50 AM
#23
Race Car
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 3,817
Likes: 0
From: FloriDUH
wow... even the neglected parts car we had didnt have that problem. either someone's way too rough stripping down his interior, or he cant remember that his car is nearly 20 years old and that the parts and parts holding glue and things like that may just have degraded a bit. my 84 944 has interior that is just fine, its seen 76xxx miles and i'm sure with proper care the interior will last the life of the car. as far as performance goes... i have but one thing to say - RWD
and as far as modifications go, i'm going with the argument that we dont have the numbers to play with all this bolt on nonsense. our cars are tuned so that you can't get more horsepower without giving up a huge chunk of change. most of us don't want to experiment with the things that some of the newer foreign car owners will, because we can't just go to the junkyard and find more pieces when something goes south. before you come asking questions why there is no technologically advanced upgrades for our 20 year old cars, double check the history of porsche, see exactly what the company has accomplished with "ancient" technology. i for one think that it is a good thing that they don't make tons of crap to put in our cars to make it faster (cause then i'd go out and buy it) but this also keeps these cars out of the hands of people who shouldnt have them. people who just like to rev their engines and drag race on thursday night and talk about when they're getting 'naaawwwws'. <img src="graemlins/c.gif" border="0" alt="[ouch]" />
Mike <img src="graemlins/icon107.gif" border="0" alt="[icon107]" />
and as far as modifications go, i'm going with the argument that we dont have the numbers to play with all this bolt on nonsense. our cars are tuned so that you can't get more horsepower without giving up a huge chunk of change. most of us don't want to experiment with the things that some of the newer foreign car owners will, because we can't just go to the junkyard and find more pieces when something goes south. before you come asking questions why there is no technologically advanced upgrades for our 20 year old cars, double check the history of porsche, see exactly what the company has accomplished with "ancient" technology. i for one think that it is a good thing that they don't make tons of crap to put in our cars to make it faster (cause then i'd go out and buy it) but this also keeps these cars out of the hands of people who shouldnt have them. people who just like to rev their engines and drag race on thursday night and talk about when they're getting 'naaawwwws'. <img src="graemlins/c.gif" border="0" alt="[ouch]" />
Mike <img src="graemlins/icon107.gif" border="0" alt="[icon107]" />
09-24-2002 | 09:54 AM
#24
Race Director
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 10,033
Likes: 1
From: Houston, TX USA
[quote]Originally posted by dave120:
<strong>You're gonna try and tell us that the interior quality of a new economy car is anywhere close to the interior quality of these 944s? I'm sorry but that's one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard. </strong><hr></blockquote>
No, the interior quality of the Nissan isn't even close to the quality of the 944. It's considerably better than that of the 944.
<strong>You're gonna try and tell us that the interior quality of a new economy car is anywhere close to the interior quality of these 944s? I'm sorry but that's one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard. </strong><hr></blockquote>
No, the interior quality of the Nissan isn't even close to the quality of the 944. It's considerably better than that of the 944.
09-24-2002 | 09:58 AM
#25
Racer
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 370
Likes: 0
From: South Jersey
[quote] Because they're cheaper, lighter, not as engineered, but built to last. <hr></blockquote>
I am a Honda mechanic and let me tell you, when it comes to everyday work, I would rather it be a Honda than a Porsche anyday of the week. No obstructed bolts, no 12pt on this side 13mm on that side, no 300 dollar special tool to put a stupid timing belt on.
Really, where is the innovation with the Porsche aftermarket? Gee, a straightpipe for my cat. Look at the exhaust selections on the aftermarket, there aren't many. Speaking of timing belts, if there was any real innovation, someone would develop a tensioner for the early cars. There is just no demand outside of the rennlist community.
doyle
I am a Honda mechanic and let me tell you, when it comes to everyday work, I would rather it be a Honda than a Porsche anyday of the week. No obstructed bolts, no 12pt on this side 13mm on that side, no 300 dollar special tool to put a stupid timing belt on.
Really, where is the innovation with the Porsche aftermarket? Gee, a straightpipe for my cat. Look at the exhaust selections on the aftermarket, there aren't many. Speaking of timing belts, if there was any real innovation, someone would develop a tensioner for the early cars. There is just no demand outside of the rennlist community.
doyle
09-24-2002 | 10:04 AM
#26
Race Director
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 10,033
Likes: 1
From: Houston, TX USA
[quote]Originally posted by special tool:
<strong>Geo - you are really pushing the validity envelope when you won't even agree with Autoxdriver's QAULITY statement.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Look, I know you guys don't want to hear this, but it's true. I'm unbiased here. Don't forget that I own both. I'm not just some punk with a Japanese car that is coming in and dissing Porsche. It's not my intent. Don't forget that the 944, at least the early 944, still heavily reflected its Audi roots.
Look, I don't want to **** people off. I'll just stop talking about this. Call me a flake or whatever you like. I'm not going to convince some of you (and I don't really care to try) and this conversation has strayed far from the original question now.
<strong>Geo - you are really pushing the validity envelope when you won't even agree with Autoxdriver's QAULITY statement.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Look, I know you guys don't want to hear this, but it's true. I'm unbiased here. Don't forget that I own both. I'm not just some punk with a Japanese car that is coming in and dissing Porsche. It's not my intent. Don't forget that the 944, at least the early 944, still heavily reflected its Audi roots.
Look, I don't want to **** people off. I'll just stop talking about this. Call me a flake or whatever you like. I'm not going to convince some of you (and I don't really care to try) and this conversation has strayed far from the original question now.
09-24-2002 | 10:21 AM
#27
Race Director
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 10,033
Likes: 1
From: Houston, TX USA
[quote]Originally posted by ERAU944:
<strong>wow... even the neglected parts car we had didnt have that problem. either someone's way too rough stripping down his interior, or he cant remember that his car is nearly 20 years old and that the parts and parts holding glue and things like that may just have degraded a bit.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Actually I tried to be very careful taking it apart. I really wanted to sell all of the interior since I had no use for it and I was sure others would. It did sit out in the sun for 3 years before I acquired it and I'm sure that dried much of it out.
[quote]Originally posted by ERAU944:
<strong>as far as performance goes... i have but one thing to say - RWD
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Yes, the RWD it very desirable. It doesn't necessarily mean greater performance, but it's sure more rewarding.
[quote]Originally posted by ERAU944:
<strong>and as far as modifications go, i'm going with the argument that we dont have the numbers to play with all this bolt on nonsense. our cars are tuned so that you can't get more horsepower without giving up a huge chunk of change.</strong><hr></blockquote>
1) As I already mentioned, Jon Milledge gets 185 bhp out of an IT legal 8v engine. IT engines are heavily restricted. There's power to be found. There just is not as much to be found as cheaply as a 951.
2) As for the chunk of change, that is exactly the point I made earlier. There is more money being spent in the Japanese car circles. All NA engines (except possibly the domestic junk) require a fair amount of money to get relatively small amounts of power. Nothing new there.
<strong>wow... even the neglected parts car we had didnt have that problem. either someone's way too rough stripping down his interior, or he cant remember that his car is nearly 20 years old and that the parts and parts holding glue and things like that may just have degraded a bit.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Actually I tried to be very careful taking it apart. I really wanted to sell all of the interior since I had no use for it and I was sure others would. It did sit out in the sun for 3 years before I acquired it and I'm sure that dried much of it out.
[quote]Originally posted by ERAU944:
<strong>as far as performance goes... i have but one thing to say - RWD
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Yes, the RWD it very desirable. It doesn't necessarily mean greater performance, but it's sure more rewarding.
[quote]Originally posted by ERAU944:
<strong>and as far as modifications go, i'm going with the argument that we dont have the numbers to play with all this bolt on nonsense. our cars are tuned so that you can't get more horsepower without giving up a huge chunk of change.</strong><hr></blockquote>
1) As I already mentioned, Jon Milledge gets 185 bhp out of an IT legal 8v engine. IT engines are heavily restricted. There's power to be found. There just is not as much to be found as cheaply as a 951.
2) As for the chunk of change, that is exactly the point I made earlier. There is more money being spent in the Japanese car circles. All NA engines (except possibly the domestic junk) require a fair amount of money to get relatively small amounts of power. Nothing new there.
09-24-2002 | 11:29 AM
#28
Instructor
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 149
Likes: 0
From: Cary, NC USA
[quote] Yes, the RWD it very desirable. It doesn't necessarily mean greater performance, but it's sure more rewarding.
<hr></blockquote>
Yes it does mean greater performance, and anyone who understands racing physics knows that.
I can't speak to a stock Sentra SE-R keeping up with a stock 944 on the track but there could be enormous weight differences between these two cars. A mini-cooper S might also out perform it. That doesn't make it a better race/track car. A good track car is a car that gives you the feedback you need to take it to the limit and hold it there so you you can be successful competing against other cars in your class, not cars that weigh a lot less.
You haven't driven a 944 yet. I think you might see the difference when you do. I owned a 93 NX2000 which has the SE-R engine and is lighter than even the Sentra. Now my girl friend drives it and I drive it whenever I want to. I've always been impressed with that car and it will out accelerate a stock 944. It also has a limited slip as standard equipment which makes it great for autocross, etc. But at the end of the day it just doesn't hold a candle to the superb feel of the 944 which comes directly from the build quality. Its not a sports car, its an economy car and you know it. And so does everyone else :-)
<hr></blockquote>
Yes it does mean greater performance, and anyone who understands racing physics knows that.
I can't speak to a stock Sentra SE-R keeping up with a stock 944 on the track but there could be enormous weight differences between these two cars. A mini-cooper S might also out perform it. That doesn't make it a better race/track car. A good track car is a car that gives you the feedback you need to take it to the limit and hold it there so you you can be successful competing against other cars in your class, not cars that weigh a lot less.
You haven't driven a 944 yet. I think you might see the difference when you do. I owned a 93 NX2000 which has the SE-R engine and is lighter than even the Sentra. Now my girl friend drives it and I drive it whenever I want to. I've always been impressed with that car and it will out accelerate a stock 944. It also has a limited slip as standard equipment which makes it great for autocross, etc. But at the end of the day it just doesn't hold a candle to the superb feel of the 944 which comes directly from the build quality. Its not a sports car, its an economy car and you know it. And so does everyone else :-)
09-24-2002 | 11:52 AM
#29
Race Director
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 17,643
Likes: 8
From: Phoenix, Az
Guys,
Lets not get into a personal attack on this issue. I am not saying that anyone is, but GEO... Keep on talking.
While I am huge Porsche Fan, I am smart enough to listen other opinions. I am not of the belief that Porsche are the greatst gift to mankind and fastest car ever mad. They are great fun & fast cars. The more I go out to the track in mixed-make events I see that many other cars can be fast too. Some times I am surprised how fast other cars are. Often times I am reminded of how fast an 18 year old underpowered econobox VW turned Porsche really is. Heck even now when I compare my father's bone stock 84 944 to my 2001 VW GTI 1.8T the 944 easily wins the handling and braking game. Sure the GTI is smoother and much nicer interior and the little turbo spools up so quick that it feels like more than the 150 hp it has. Bottom line is that the 944 is a better handling car and has the brakes to take it to the track. My GTI.... I really don't want to take it to the track because I think I will really expose its weakness and limitations. Why do that when I don't need to.
This weekend I did 2 944-spec races... Guess what on Sunday a Ford Focus came out... stripped out and well prepared... Guess where it qualified....
Finishing order was
944s 1-2-3 (94,76,61, Ford)
Lets not get into a personal attack on this issue. I am not saying that anyone is, but GEO... Keep on talking.
While I am huge Porsche Fan, I am smart enough to listen other opinions. I am not of the belief that Porsche are the greatst gift to mankind and fastest car ever mad. They are great fun & fast cars. The more I go out to the track in mixed-make events I see that many other cars can be fast too. Some times I am surprised how fast other cars are. Often times I am reminded of how fast an 18 year old underpowered econobox VW turned Porsche really is. Heck even now when I compare my father's bone stock 84 944 to my 2001 VW GTI 1.8T the 944 easily wins the handling and braking game. Sure the GTI is smoother and much nicer interior and the little turbo spools up so quick that it feels like more than the 150 hp it has. Bottom line is that the 944 is a better handling car and has the brakes to take it to the track. My GTI.... I really don't want to take it to the track because I think I will really expose its weakness and limitations. Why do that when I don't need to.
This weekend I did 2 944-spec races... Guess what on Sunday a Ford Focus came out... stripped out and well prepared... Guess where it qualified....
Finishing order was
944s 1-2-3 (94,76,61, Ford)
09-24-2002 | 11:58 AM
#30
Instructor
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 149
Likes: 0
From: Cary, NC USA
Now that I've thought about it some more its even harder for me to believe the Sentra SE-R can out perform the 944 on the track, and I assume we are talking about a road course, not a drag strip. I might could see it on an autocross course given much larger rims and tires than what comes stock on the SE-R. The LSD works wonders in autox.
On a road course however its hard to imagine without some driver input taken into account. The 944 has way better brakes than a sentra and even if the sentra is significantly lighter it shouldn't be able to handle much better if at all. I'm not saying its impossible but you can chalk me up as a skeptic until I see it for myself!
On a road course however its hard to imagine without some driver input taken into account. The 944 has way better brakes than a sentra and even if the sentra is significantly lighter it shouldn't be able to handle much better if at all. I'm not saying its impossible but you can chalk me up as a skeptic until I see it for myself!