Dave

I think I've finally convinced the Mrs that a set of autox/DE wheels would be a good idea This leaves me with a number of choices to make so I'm hoping for some help narrowing my options a bit.
First the groundrules, 1)I don't want spacers, 2)The 16" Fuchs are my street/summer wheels and are staying that way, 3)unsprung weight is bad so the lighter the better, and 4)the budget is minimal, so the cheaper the better.
My usage will most likely consist of 7-8 days of autox and 2-3 DEs (2 days each) per season.

A little background; when I got the Fuchs they had Hoosiers on them 225/50-16 front and 245 rear, I still have them in storage, they're not new, the guy I got them from said they have a DE or 2 left in 'em. They're there and paid for but I'd need a set of 16" wheels and they don't have that much left on them. There are an option, but...

OK, wheels first;
Size)I think I'm going to stay in the stock class for autocross, so 15" or 16" wheels are required. 16" are more expensive but I could use the hoosiers and hold off on the tire purchase a little longer. OR 16" wheels and bite the bullet on new tires, instead of paying to mount and ballance tires that don't have that much left on them. OR 15" wheels which weigh a little less and cost a little less, but again, have to spring for tires at the same time.

Width) Would 7" all around be enough? I doubt I'd ever go wider than a 245, maybe only 225. Are 7&8 needed? Skip and others have mentioned 15x7 all around. what about 16x7?

Wheel type)Fuchs would be nice...light, strong, etc. but expensive, especially in 16" and even in ugly track condition 16x7&8 would eat up most of the budget. This leaves PDs and aftermarket wheels in 16", if I were to go 15", cookie cutters would also be an option. How heavy are cookie cutters? I do see those around often, dirt cheap too. I occasionally see 1 piece BBS wheels too, any input on weight? Any other wheels to watch for?

Tires)As I mentioned above, the used Hoosiers are an option, but I don't know if the amount of life left warrents mounting them. You can just see where the 2 grooves are (R3S03 IIRC). As these are the high $$$ end of the range I doubt I'll be buying new Hoosiers so what are the other reccomendations?

Sizes) There's a little voice in the back of my head that says 225s all around. There's another one that thinks 225 and 245 would be better. The third one says "break out the lithium". I'm leaning toward keeping the stock diameter as I am happy with my gearing. Yes, I know a smaller diameter would give me a little more acceleration but it would also lower my speed in gear.

Other) Anything I left out?

stefang

1. Toss the Hoosiers, they're probably hard as a rock by now anyway.

2. 15" wheels. Lighter, cheaper, cheaper tires. 7" is sufficient, 8" is better. PD or CC - Fuchs are a waste of money for your application.

3. 225/50 15 all around. This will lower the car 1/2". Better handling, better acceleration. Loss of speed in given gear not really relevant. 245s will only slow you down, you don't have the power to need the extra rubber.

IMHO.

Stef

Ken

Dave,

I've always thought my cookies were pretty light. If i get a chance this weekend, I'll weigh them for you. I'm interested in track wheels too, in the future. I was leaning towards getting a set of 16" Fuchs for the street and putting an autocross tire on my cookies. I think Skip mentioned something once about 245/50/15s being the NA's secret weapon at autocrosses. Hopefully he can comfirm and/or correct that statement so we all can gain the advantage. <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />

Jason_86_951

Another option is the 16" phone dials that came on the 86' 951 as there are the 23.3mm offset and are relativly light weight. I put on a set on my old 84' NA are they felt great! Just an idea.
Jason <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />

M758

Ok,
for Ax here is what you NEED....
15x7 Fuchs are best, but Phone Dials or cookie cutters work just fine. The weight is about the same and less cost allow budget for more stuff.
I use cookie cutters and think they are the hot bargan wheel for 944 track and Ax duty. Sure Fuchs are better, but not really worth the cost IMHO.
225/50 Tires... 225 is widest you want to go on 7" wheels are plenty wide for NA power. 50 series tires on 15" rims effective give you lower final drive ratio and therefore better gearing. I can't tell you howmany times I hear other cars 944's and 911's lugging tight corners since they are too low for second and going to first just wasted time. The 1" smaller diameter pulls me through just fine with out a hint of lugging. I have never needed to shift to 3rd gear in any Ax. If you really need it a chip with 7,000 rpm revlimit will cure and top of second gear issues.

As for rubber. Best R compound is Kumho V700 or Victoracer. These are about the same cost ($125 for 225/50R15) and about the same grip. I have plenty of exprience with Victoracers, none with V700.

don't use old race rubber. It gets hard and does not stick any more.

Also using the same tire size at all 4 corners allow for tire rotation. This you want to do to get more even tread wear accross all 4 tires. This will make the tires last just a bit longer.

FYI,
I have Autocrossed and tracked my car for 2 years on 15x7 cookie cutters & 225/50 Victoracers. I am EXTREMLY HAPPY with the set-up. I estimate a full season of Ax on a set of tires assuming 1 event per month over 7 or 8 months.

Skip

[quote]Originally posted by Ken:
<strong>I've always thought my cookies were pretty light.<hr></blockquote></strong>

Fuchs are ~1lb lighter per wheel than CC's and PD's. And, Fuchs are forged = stronger (CC's and PD's are cast)

[quote]<strong>I think Skip mentioned something once about 245/50/15s being the NA's secret weapon at autocrosses.</strong><hr></blockquote>

225/45-15 on 15x7 (15x8 is a better match, but you have to watch for classing restrictions - ITS can't use 8" wheels - a very stupid rule I take great exception to... since they WERE optional wheels!).

Ken

Thanks for the information and corrections Skip. Let us know what you choose Dave. <img src="graemlins/burnout.gif" border="0" alt="[burnout]" />

ERAU-944

i have a set of 16x7 fuchs with 225 front 245 rear, i'd be willing to part with them for say, $600... they have near-new Fulda "carat extremo" tires on them. i need some money for tires for my nearly-complete set of 15x7 and 15x8 Fuchs.

pictures i could get next time i go home.
if you're interested, my email is ERAU944@hotmail.com

take care and good luck!
Mike

Damian in NJ

You've got mail.

Dave

Thanks for all the great info, we're making progress!! Looks like the Hoosier's will be getting tossed (or equivilent) next chance I get. I guess I'm leaning toward 15" CC or PD, 8" width is not a problem for me as I only need to run a size that was available that year. I've tried to find the site's that list wheel weights to compare the different wheels/sizes, but I only found 1 link in the archives and the site is no longer up. I know I've seen another wheel weight site but I can't find it. Is there a difference in weight between CC and PDs? Does going from 7" to 8" width make a big difference in weight? Is it worth it? A dismantler that I've delt with before has 15x7 and 15x8 CCs on their site for $50 a pop...
The thing in the back of my head is the HUGE improvement in handling I got when I upgraded from 15" PDs to 16" Fuchs, I figured that the weight savings had something to do with that (as opposed to the Bridgestones being THAT MUCH better than the 15" tires) should I expect another improvement like that?
I'm hearing 225/50 and also 225/45. I have hit the rev-limiter in 2nd before (7000 chip in the MSD, starts to kick in ~6850), and don't forget that these wheels will also be used for DE, so I'm leaning toward the 50 series. Any more input there? The Hoosiers and Kuhmos are also available in 225/55, is this a good idea?
Speaking of tires, Thanks for the input on Kuhmo, any others? I had been considering the A032s, has anyone tried them? (other than the guy who kicked my @$$ at the last AX) If I'm going cheap on the wheels, Hoosiers might be an option, are they worth the extra $$$?.
Mike, Thanks, I haven't ruled you out yet but the Fulda's are closer to my street tires than I had in mind.
Damian, I'll get back to you. the winter projects are wheels/tires and front suspension at this point, but...
Thanks again for all the info and feel free to keep it comming!

M758

Kumho's are cheaper and stickier than Yoko A032R's. The yoko used to be the track/Ax Standard around here, but have been replaced by the Kumhos. Only hardcore racers use Hoosiers. They are just a bit faster than Kumhos but wear quicker and are aboit $50 more per tires.
FYI Kumho tires like 28-30 psi cold due to stiff side wall. I run 27 Cold on the track with my 2450 lb car.

Part of the reason you liked the 15" to 16" swap was due to reduction in tire side wall. The shorter side wall creates a stiffer more reactive tire. The 225/50 R15 has a similar short sidewall as the 16" tires so they will also feel pretty good.

Al P.

I'll be glad to recycle the Hoosiers for you.

Just happy as a clam on my scruffy 16" PD's

stefang

[quote]Originally posted by Dave:
<strong>
I'm hearing 225/50 and also 225/45. I have hit the rev-limiter in 2nd before (7000 chip in the MSD, starts to kick in ~6850), and don't forget that these wheels will also be used for DE, so I'm leaning toward the 50 series. Any more input there?
</strong><hr></blockquote>

The problem with 225/45/15s is availability. You only have Victoracers and Hoosiers. You get an extra 1/2 inch drop, so handling and acceleration should improve. Longevity of track rubber being what it is , you might just try them both.

Stef

Z-man

Dave:
My $0.42:
While in autox, you are definately ready for some sticky rubber (gotta get around Jim somehow!).

However, after only 1 DE event, you may want to run your car with your street tires at the track until you get more experience. Switching to stickier tires at DE too early leads to:
1. Faster lap times (which is good)
2. Less learning, more 'cheating' (which is no good)
3. Sloppy/incorrect driving technique (no good again)

Just my opinion,
-Z-man (running on 'crappy' Dunlop street tires, and still holding my own! hehe... )

Dave

Al, I'll let you know, if I get rid of 'em, you're first in line.
Stef, Thanks, the concensus here seems to be go with the Victoracers so the 45's are a posibility, but I'm happy with my current gearing and don't really want to play with it. 50 series may be the best compromise, Hoosiers are even available in 55.
Zoltan, Yeah, Sunday it clicked that I'm ready for more grip for autox. I'm undecided on switching from street tires yet for DE, but I want to keep my options open by going with something that I CAN use for DE.
As of now I'm pretty sure it'll be Victoracers, 225 width all around, either 225-50/15 on 15x7 CCs or Fuchs or 225-XX/16 on 16x7 Fuchs. I still woundn't mind an aftermarket wheel if the weight is in the ball park.