Severe Backlash
08-13-2002, 03:22 PM
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Severe Backlash
Hello everybody. I have a 1990 944S2 I’ve been experiencing backlash when I place my foot on and off the accelerator while in gear. This happens in all gears. The clutch shifts smoothly without any problems. I do however hear what sounds like gears spinning without contact in the rear of the car. I brought the car to a mechanic and was told that he had to remove the entire transmission, diff and throttle tube just to find what is wrong. Does this guy know what he is doing or just trying to rip me off. He quoted me $1000 just to see what is wrong which included removal and installation of the entire back of the car. He also stated that it is not the clutch. The problem is in the rear of the car. Help?? Anyone hear of this type of problem with these models.
Thank you all.
Thank you all.
08-13-2002, 03:58 PM
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1-Your trans is attached to the rear of the car
2-ALWAYS get at least two, if not three, estimates
3-If the trans, etc, does need removal, the high end would be $1000 for total labor including clutch change labor, etc.
2-ALWAYS get at least two, if not three, estimates
3-If the trans, etc, does need removal, the high end would be $1000 for total labor including clutch change labor, etc.
08-13-2002, 05:05 PM
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Thanks guys, I have an appointment on Thursday with performance auto in Fort Lauderdale, FL They came highly recommended.
Also, if its not the clutch what else can it be making the noise in the rear?
Also, if its not the clutch what else can it be making the noise in the rear?
08-13-2002, 05:10 PM
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From what I've gathered, there is no RULE that the clutch will fail when the clutch's rubber center fails. The rubber center provides damping for the times you mention - especially removing your foot from the gas while in gear.
Be sure you make that distinction; a clutch will set you back more than a grand, the rubber center will not.
Be sure you make that distinction; a clutch will set you back more than a grand, the rubber center will not.
08-13-2002, 05:17 PM
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Sounds like the clutch to me also. The clutch will still work, but have the backlash when the rubber center is shot, had the problem on my previous 84 944.
08-13-2002, 05:17 PM
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[quote] no RULE that the clutch will fail when the clutch's rubber center fails <hr></blockquote>
I have to say that IMHO that this is incorrect since the rubber disc is a part of the clutch. And, if you have to replace the center, thereby the clutch, a spring centered clutch would cost $550 max.
The clutch pad material may not be worn out when the rubber disc fails but I do not think that I have ever heard of somebody bothering to rebuild a clutch with a new center.
I have to say that IMHO that this is incorrect since the rubber disc is a part of the clutch. And, if you have to replace the center, thereby the clutch, a spring centered clutch would cost $550 max.
The clutch pad material may not be worn out when the rubber disc fails but I do not think that I have ever heard of somebody bothering to rebuild a clutch with a new center.
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08-13-2002, 05:22 PM
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[quote]Originally posted by 97xray:
<strong>Be sure you make that distinction; a clutch will set you back more than a grand, the rubber center will not.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Yea, this sentance is confusing. The same amount of labor (and parts) is/are involved to change either. Maybe 97xray is in reference to the friction disk not being worn to the rivets yet and not having damaged the pressure plate of flywheel?
<strong>Be sure you make that distinction; a clutch will set you back more than a grand, the rubber center will not.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Yea, this sentance is confusing. The same amount of labor (and parts) is/are involved to change either. Maybe 97xray is in reference to the friction disk not being worn to the rivets yet and not having damaged the pressure plate of flywheel?
08-13-2002, 05:26 PM
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Let me start my thought over...
Is there any chance you can do some of this work yourself? Doing so would very much change the amount of money you're going to dish out - assuming you can conclusively find out what it is that not functioning correctly.
And, thanks Tabor for stepping up on this one, my communication skills temporarily disappeared!
Is there any chance you can do some of this work yourself? Doing so would very much change the amount of money you're going to dish out - assuming you can conclusively find out what it is that not functioning correctly.
And, thanks Tabor for stepping up on this one, my communication skills temporarily disappeared!
08-13-2002, 05:35 PM
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Once the center fails, the trans goes into a limp mode, where you can baby it enough to go a very short distance IF the rubber pieces do not jamb the trans altogether.
The spring centered disc is more expensive (@$100) than the standard rubber centered and some people complain about it being noisy (never happened to me)
My entire clutch w/labor and all of the extras (resurface flywheel, new bolts, throw-out bearing, guide tube, etc) was $2500.
Several fellow listers have done this job. The range has been anywhere from 16 hours (na) to 40+ hours that I have seen posted.
The spring centered disc is more expensive (@$100) than the standard rubber centered and some people complain about it being noisy (never happened to me)
My entire clutch w/labor and all of the extras (resurface flywheel, new bolts, throw-out bearing, guide tube, etc) was $2500.
Several fellow listers have done this job. The range has been anywhere from 16 hours (na) to 40+ hours that I have seen posted.
08-13-2002, 05:37 PM
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Here's how to check whether a clutch rubber centre is gone without it costing a penny:
1. Drive two wheels (lengthways) onto sidewalk so you have a nice gap under the centre rear of the car over the gutter. Switch engine off, put in neutral.
2. Creep under the car from the back until you get to the front of the transmission, just where it meets the tube.
3. There is a hole about an inch in diameter at the bottom of the bellhousing just rear of where it joins the tube (bring a flashlight) It probably has a rubber plug in it. Take plug out.
4. Stick finger in hole and see if you can move the shaft inside the tube. If the clutch centre is very gone, you should be able to move it just less than a third of a rotation. Mine moved easily
There should be no movement as the shaft is really an extension of the crank, interrupted by a clutch.
5. If there is rotation, get clutch assembly changed and get the engine rear main oil seal & pilot bearing done as well. Put plug in.
Worked for me, 1000 dollars or thereabouts later, one new clutch - prices may vary.
1. Drive two wheels (lengthways) onto sidewalk so you have a nice gap under the centre rear of the car over the gutter. Switch engine off, put in neutral.
2. Creep under the car from the back until you get to the front of the transmission, just where it meets the tube.
3. There is a hole about an inch in diameter at the bottom of the bellhousing just rear of where it joins the tube (bring a flashlight) It probably has a rubber plug in it. Take plug out.
4. Stick finger in hole and see if you can move the shaft inside the tube. If the clutch centre is very gone, you should be able to move it just less than a third of a rotation. Mine moved easily
There should be no movement as the shaft is really an extension of the crank, interrupted by a clutch.5. If there is rotation, get clutch assembly changed and get the engine rear main oil seal & pilot bearing done as well. Put plug in.
Worked for me, 1000 dollars or thereabouts later, one new clutch - prices may vary.
08-13-2002, 07:26 PM
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[quote]Originally posted by nib5:
<strong>3. There is a hole about an inch in diameter at the bottom of the bellhousing just rear of where it joins the tube (bring a flashlight) It probably has a rubber plug in it. Take plug out.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
At the front of the transaxle bell housing, there is a trapezoidal rubber plug (~5"x8") that allows greater access to the driveshaft and locking collar. This may prove an easier access point than the small hole forward of it mentioned above. That hole is primarily for access to the front bolt on the locking collar.
I also believe the description you've given points to a blown rubber center. To my knowledge, there is no way to repair it independantly of the entire clutch disc. If you're not a hard driver, and don't compete in track events or autocross, and don't mind replacing it again in 5-7 years, then rubber is fine - otherwise, choose the spring center type.
Good Luck!
<strong>3. There is a hole about an inch in diameter at the bottom of the bellhousing just rear of where it joins the tube (bring a flashlight) It probably has a rubber plug in it. Take plug out.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
At the front of the transaxle bell housing, there is a trapezoidal rubber plug (~5"x8") that allows greater access to the driveshaft and locking collar. This may prove an easier access point than the small hole forward of it mentioned above. That hole is primarily for access to the front bolt on the locking collar.
I also believe the description you've given points to a blown rubber center. To my knowledge, there is no way to repair it independantly of the entire clutch disc. If you're not a hard driver, and don't compete in track events or autocross, and don't mind replacing it again in 5-7 years, then rubber is fine - otherwise, choose the spring center type.
Good Luck!
08-13-2002, 08:02 PM
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Good call Skip, you can get your whole hand in that one.
The idea of fixing the rubber centre is just 'clutching' at straws. Judging by the appearance of mine, it would be a more costly feat of engineering than just buying a new one. Don't scrimp on anything, the main expense for a clutch job on these cars is time, you DO NOT want to have to get back in there to fix some nickel and dime part.
The idea of fixing the rubber centre is just 'clutching'
at straws. Judging by the appearance of mine, it would be a more costly feat of engineering than just buying a new one. Don't scrimp on anything, the main expense for a clutch job on these cars is time, you DO NOT want to have to get back in there to fix some nickel and dime part.
