Hyperground wires!
03-15-2003, 04:01 AM
#1
Track Day
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Santa Cruz, Ca, 95060
Posts: 22
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hyperground wires!
<a href="http://www.sunautomobile.com/" target="_blank">http://www.sunautomobile.com/</a>
I'm sure some of you have heard of or read about the ultra low impedance hyperground wire test in Sport compact car and import tuner and the noticeable improvement it made in the test cars. (5-10lb/ft torque depending on application)
Has anyone installed these on their 944? I see applications for 3 series BMW's...
Also, I've been told these are essentially the same as high-end stereo ground wire... I'm not sure how true that claim is..
I'm sure some of you have heard of or read about the ultra low impedance hyperground wire test in Sport compact car and import tuner and the noticeable improvement it made in the test cars. (5-10lb/ft torque depending on application)
Has anyone installed these on their 944? I see applications for 3 series BMW's...
Also, I've been told these are essentially the same as high-end stereo ground wire... I'm not sure how true that claim is..
03-15-2003, 07:02 AM
#3
Racer
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 457
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Lets see... better grounding connection means nothing, really. All engine sensors are grounded to the block, as is the DME/KLR. So, a ground voltage difference between the battery and the block is therefore "worked around". Now, lets assume that the power delivery to the motor becomes more efficent. This would perhaps result in a "cleaner" DC power source for everything. All good electrical components, namely microcontrolling units (i.e. a DME or KLR) convert higher incoming voltages to lower (5V in this case) usable voltages. This is done internally to the computer, most likely with an IC such as an LM7805. Referring to the datasheet, two capacitors are used in parallel with the incoming and outgoing signals from this IC to provide noise suppression (other power regulating ICs require similar capacitors). As such, they will "clean" the signal coming to the ECU.
Another possible advantage is that the battery will be able to supply more current for ground switched devices - namely those switched by the DME via a relay. So now the fuel pump is allowed to draw more current if it wants to without overworking the battery - theres 15 HP right there - j/k.
I honestly cannot see how ANY performance benifit would come from this. This is like using "Monstor Cable" for your battery ground. In an audio system, there is a benifit in that you are trying to pass something other than a DC signal along the wire - a signal where noise filtering becomes difficult (since the Gaussian White Noise that the cables might pick up will be in the same frequency range as the audio signals may be (0 - 22Khz or so)). In an audio application, the power circuits of the amplifiers can "leak" noise in to the actual audio signal - and hence you want the power signals to be "clean", just as you want the audio signals to be "clean". Look at a high-end home receiver - more often than not (at least in good designs), the power regulation circuitry is on a completely seperate circuit board than any of the audio processing circuitry - this is to prevent "power noise" from leaking in to the audio signal.
The only real benifit I can see to this sort of upgrade would be asthetics (the wires come in several colors) and possibly longevity of the wire itself (perhaps it provides some abraision and/or thermal protection from its design). As for HP/TQ - don't count on it. Even upgraded spark plug wires (i.e. very very thick ones) do not themselves give a performance benifit (rather, in a turbo car, for instance, they allow a more powerful spark which then more efficently burns the fuel which reduces the chance of detonation which lets you run more boost - if only there were a twin plug head for a 951!)
Another possible advantage is that the battery will be able to supply more current for ground switched devices - namely those switched by the DME via a relay. So now the fuel pump is allowed to draw more current if it wants to without overworking the battery - theres 15 HP right there - j/k.
I honestly cannot see how ANY performance benifit would come from this. This is like using "Monstor Cable" for your battery ground. In an audio system, there is a benifit in that you are trying to pass something other than a DC signal along the wire - a signal where noise filtering becomes difficult (since the Gaussian White Noise that the cables might pick up will be in the same frequency range as the audio signals may be (0 - 22Khz or so)). In an audio application, the power circuits of the amplifiers can "leak" noise in to the actual audio signal - and hence you want the power signals to be "clean", just as you want the audio signals to be "clean". Look at a high-end home receiver - more often than not (at least in good designs), the power regulation circuitry is on a completely seperate circuit board than any of the audio processing circuitry - this is to prevent "power noise" from leaking in to the audio signal.
The only real benifit I can see to this sort of upgrade would be asthetics (the wires come in several colors) and possibly longevity of the wire itself (perhaps it provides some abraision and/or thermal protection from its design). As for HP/TQ - don't count on it. Even upgraded spark plug wires (i.e. very very thick ones) do not themselves give a performance benifit (rather, in a turbo car, for instance, they allow a more powerful spark which then more efficently burns the fuel which reduces the chance of detonation which lets you run more boost - if only there were a twin plug head for a 951!)
03-15-2003, 12:44 PM
#6
Geaux Tigers!
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by IceShark:
<strong>Oh Boy, I need to spiff up the promo material for my battery cable kit and jack the prices up. LOL!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Yeah, my car gained 15hp by just putting the box your kit came in on the passenger seat. Gotta imagine I'll be in Viper range when it's installed.
<strong>Oh Boy, I need to spiff up the promo material for my battery cable kit and jack the prices up. LOL!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Yeah, my car gained 15hp by just putting the box your kit came in on the passenger seat. Gotta imagine I'll be in Viper range when it's installed.
03-15-2003, 12:50 PM
#7
Nordschleife Master
led, Yeah, that is such a joke. It is not a bad idea to add more & better grounds, but come on.
"The "Hyper Ground System" uses thick gauge 99.99% pure copper, and connects directly from the cylinder head and other points under
the hood to the battery, to provide an ultra low resistance connection.This will increase the primary potential of regular cars to ignition tuned vehicles."
Well, all copper wire from good manufacturers are nearly 100% pure. Ok, "thick gauge" what exactly is that? What is your stranding scheme and count? How do you attach the terminals? Crimp, solder and seal? I could go on and on.
It is all hyped up and overcharged like the infamous PIAA bulbs (give you 50% less and charge 10 times more). I guess what sort of bothers me is I have spent so much time and effort helping Rennlisters on wiring projects and then have this crap show up on the list. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" />
"The "Hyper Ground System" uses thick gauge 99.99% pure copper, and connects directly from the cylinder head and other points under
the hood to the battery, to provide an ultra low resistance connection.This will increase the primary potential of regular cars to ignition tuned vehicles."
Well, all copper wire from good manufacturers are nearly 100% pure. Ok, "thick gauge" what exactly is that? What is your stranding scheme and count? How do you attach the terminals? Crimp, solder and seal? I could go on and on.
It is all hyped up and overcharged like the infamous PIAA bulbs (give you 50% less and charge 10 times more). I guess what sort of bothers me is I have spent so much time and effort helping Rennlisters on wiring projects and then have this crap show up on the list. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" />
Trending Topics
03-15-2003, 12:55 PM
#8
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 5,384
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The only benefit would be when you start the engine, this is when you draw the most current in the battery return lead. After it is running, NW can it improve performance over correctly installed ground leads.
The issue with battery/ground leads on the 944 is age related, 14 plus years takes a toll on connectors and insulation not to mention all the mechanics that broke or forgot to tighten a few of these connections over the years. Getting new cables and connectors is the main advantage of Icesharks' cables, The better connectors, fuse and new cable tie add to the value.
The issue with battery/ground leads on the 944 is age related, 14 plus years takes a toll on connectors and insulation not to mention all the mechanics that broke or forgot to tighten a few of these connections over the years. Getting new cables and connectors is the main advantage of Icesharks' cables, The better connectors, fuse and new cable tie add to the value.
03-15-2003, 01:35 PM
#9
Nordschleife Master
beab, you got me going now as I await my girl coming back from grocery store. LOL!
There is something I have never figured out about the 944 body. It is not a good grounding platform. So added grounds do help ALOT. My headlight package guys get at least 0.75 additional volts at the bulbs just from the supplemental grounds in the package.
We have two other problem childs. Stock wire gauge is too small where you have to move a bunch of current through. Headlights are an obvious area, why I've sold over 100 kits and people get their socks knocked off when they see the results. That isn't smoke and mirrors.
The other main problem is the terminal connections. OEM are bare copper, not tin plated,
and crimped only. Corrosion is a problem between the terminal tube and the wire core. If you only crimp you are going to have corrosion and building resistance as time passes.
I built a salt water service sailboat that got dropped in the drink in 1980. Electrical terminals were crimped, soldered, siliconed, then heat shrunk. I saw it down in Belieze a few years ago. Cut open a terminal on the mast. Still perfect. I will stand by my construction methods until I can't construct anymore. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
But the big boyz can't do this on normal items as it costs too much in labor and material. We have a Rennlister in aerospace that got my headlight kit. He remarked that it was probably the best they could do.
So, I overbuild. Anyone want me to underbuild and deliver crap?
There is something I have never figured out about the 944 body. It is not a good grounding platform. So added grounds do help ALOT. My headlight package guys get at least 0.75 additional volts at the bulbs just from the supplemental grounds in the package.
We have two other problem childs. Stock wire gauge is too small where you have to move a bunch of current through. Headlights are an obvious area, why I've sold over 100 kits and people get their socks knocked off when they see the results. That isn't smoke and mirrors.
The other main problem is the terminal connections. OEM are bare copper, not tin plated,
and crimped only. Corrosion is a problem between the terminal tube and the wire core. If you only crimp you are going to have corrosion and building resistance as time passes.
I built a salt water service sailboat that got dropped in the drink in 1980. Electrical terminals were crimped, soldered, siliconed, then heat shrunk. I saw it down in Belieze a few years ago. Cut open a terminal on the mast. Still perfect. I will stand by my construction methods until I can't construct anymore. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
But the big boyz can't do this on normal items as it costs too much in labor and material. We have a Rennlister in aerospace that got my headlight kit. He remarked that it was probably the best they could do.
So, I overbuild. Anyone want me to underbuild and deliver crap?
03-15-2003, 03:14 PM
#10
Track Day
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Santa Cruz, Ca, 95060
Posts: 22
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
check out this link of a dyno before and after ground wires were installed on a suzuki aerio
scroll down a bit to see it
<a href="http://www.importtuner.com/tech/0212it_ppsuzuki/index.html" target="_blank">http://www.importtuner.com/tech/0212it_ppsuzuki/index.html</a>
scroll down a bit to see it
<a href="http://www.importtuner.com/tech/0212it_ppsuzuki/index.html" target="_blank">http://www.importtuner.com/tech/0212it_ppsuzuki/index.html</a>
03-15-2003, 06:59 PM
#11
Racer
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 457
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Looking at that dyno chart isn't convincing to me at all. Alot of the blue writing was illegable. I figure they did the run without the wires after they did the run with the wires. Car heated up and lost 1.5HP - that's pretty reasonable.
03-15-2003, 09:31 PM
#12
Track Day
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Santa Cruz, Ca, 95060
Posts: 22
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I highly doubt that... Why would someone install something and dyno it and then uninstall it and then dyno it, when they've been installing other things on the car aswell like an exhaust. they dynoed it several times... I suppose you think they did the same with the exhaust... welded it on then dynoed it and then cut it off welded the factory one back on and dynoed it.. Anyone with enough mechanical experience to work on cars or anyone who has a 3 digit IQ for that matter understands the fundamentals of doing things in a logical order. It seems highly unlikely that the mechanics over import tuner don't know better than to do the dyno beforehand.. It sounds like your being overly skeptical here (maybe it's just a trend forming in this thread) Anyway numbers don't lie
03-16-2003, 02:20 AM
#13
Racer
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 457
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
IceShark - my hats off to your construction techniques and philosphies. The wiring harnesses that my company, Paradox Engineering, are producing to work with the LinkPlus EFI system are constructed in such a way - crimped, soldered, heat shrinked, abraision protected - for the standard version. The upgraded version will add additional thermal protection, as well as teflon insulated wires. I want things to last forever, and as such, when I buy products, I look for that.
03-16-2003, 02:31 PM
#14
Nordschleife Master
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by Paul Marques:
<strong>I highly doubt that...
anyone who has a 3 digit IQ for that matter
Anyway numbers don't lie</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Well that raises a question about the writer but I'm not chasing that too far.
A very old political saying: "Liers figure and figures lie".
rcl, I also use teflon jacketed wires in one spot. Not for heat or abraision, just for smaller overall jacket diameter so I can keep a 10 gauge run going into a small clearance area. For the heat and abrasion, I use fiberglass sleeve.
Teflon is stiff and costs 5 times as much so isn't really too attractive unless you have a very harsh enviroment to deal with.
<strong>I highly doubt that...
anyone who has a 3 digit IQ for that matter
Anyway numbers don't lie</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Well that raises a question about the writer but I'm not chasing that too far.
A very old political saying: "Liers figure and figures lie".
rcl, I also use teflon jacketed wires in one spot. Not for heat or abraision, just for smaller overall jacket diameter so I can keep a 10 gauge run going into a small clearance area. For the heat and abrasion, I use fiberglass sleeve.
Teflon is stiff and costs 5 times as much so isn't really too attractive unless you have a very harsh enviroment to deal with.
03-18-2003, 05:48 PM
#15
Racer
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 457
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I just finished talking to the Hyperground manufacturers. They have agreed to let me get a set, dyno before and after, and if I don't see a difference, they'll take them back. I'll post my results here, as well.