Hybrid VW

Hi! I've had an eye for the 944/951 for quite a while, and have been lurking here for about a month trying to expand my knowledge of the cars a bit to see if I would "really" like to own one.

My plan would go something like this: pick up a nice 951 ('87-88 or newer), probably put a suspension kit and wheels/tires on it, fit the biggest brakes that will fit into the wheels, and then build up the motor. My first question is: how far can you take the motor before the CV's and the tranny become an issue. I've read about Powerhaus' 400-450 hp, but I know from experience that making power from an engine is one thing, but destroying the rest of the drivetrain on a regular basis takes most of the fun out of it!(I've got a Scirocco that breaks gears every 5-6 months!)

So, what can they take, what do you guys like best about your 944/951, and more importantly, what do you think of Scirocco's (late model in particular) <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />

Deepice

[quote]Originally posted by Hybrid VW:
<strong>put a suspension kit and wheels/tires on it, fit the biggest brakes that will fit into the wheels, and then build up the motor. </strong><hr></blockquote>

Smart man.

The 951 tranny can handle 350?+ to the rear wheels all day long.

I believe that the Germans over build there stuff where the Japanese build right to spec.

PorscheG96

Hahah, this post reminds me of Ahmet...he's the perfect guy to answer all your questions.

Dave

[quote]Originally posted by Hybrid VW:
<strong> and more importantly, what do you think of Scirocco's (late model in particular) <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>

I liked the early ones MUCH better. My first Scirocco was an '80 "S" model, I built the hell out of it. I never had a problem with the trans or CVs, but I had to replace the lower control arms every spring as the wheels migrated to the rear of the wheelwells. 1900 lbs, est. 140 hp, 0-60 was mid 5 second range, low 14s in the 1/4, best handling FWD I've ever driven (equal to a stock 944) etc.
Next was a '84.5 Wolfsberg Edition, 300 lbs heavier, higher center of gravity, all on the same platform, nice car but nowhere near as tight and ballanced stock, and it never inspired me to do much building.

Hybrid VW

[quote]My first Scirocco was an '80 "S" model, 1900 lbs, est. 140 hp, 0-60 was mid 5 second range, low 14s in the 1/4, best handling FWD I've ever driven (equal to a stock 944) etc.
Next was a '84.5 Wolfsberg Edition, 300 lbs heavier <hr></blockquote>
Cool! Mine's an '87 16V, so it is even a bit heavier, but the power is there to pull it- it's just that the transmission can't handle the torque for very long.

Are there any transmission options that could take maybe 500hp? Like motorsport gears or a tranny out of a 928 (another car I am fascinated with!)? What are the widest tires that can be fitted under those gorgeous 944 fenders?

Tabor

Some people who are worried about the stock 951 transaxle upgrade to the 968 (6 speed) unit. It is rumored to handle 500rwhp. On the other hand, some people claim that the stock unit will also handle 500rwhp.

I think someone is running 10 inch rims up front and 12 inch rims in the back. They probably rolled their fenders though.

Dave

[quote]Originally posted by Hybrid VW:
<strong>
Cool! Mine's an '87 16V, so it is even a bit heavier, but the power is there to pull it- it's just that the transmission can't handle the torque for very long.

</strong><hr></blockquote>

My dislike was not in regard to the power to weight issue. The Wolfsburg was the first Scirocco to get the early solid lifter GTI motor so it had 15-20% more hp than the '80 did (both being stock), this kept the power to weight ratio almost identical. I didn't like what the weight did to the chassis in handling and braking. The early car was just about a go-cart, the later car felt alot heavier, and would have needed some serious upgrading (springs, shocks/struts, anti-roll bars etc.) to get it even close to where the '80 started out. Also the '84 seemed to have more flex even after adding upper and lower strut tie-bars than was felt in the '80 in stock form.

BTW, if anyone knows of a decent '80-'81 Scirocco S, I wouldn't mind building another one (finding all those early-mid eighties aftermarket parts for a 1.6 would be a good trick) ...I miss that car

Hybrid VW

[quote] On the other hand, some people claim that the stock unit will also handle 500rwhp. <hr></blockquote>
Yeah, it might last a few pulls on the dyno, but probably not 50 or even 20,000 street/track miles. But thanks, it gives me an idea of what can be done Tabor, do you know of a link for a NW Porsche club? Maybe I could get involved and edumacate myself further

[quote]BTW, if anyone knows of a decent '80-'81 Scirocco S, I wouldn't mind building another one (finding all those early-mid eighties aftermarket parts for a 1.6 would be a good trick) ...I miss that car <hr></blockquote>
Dave, I saw one for sale just this past week on the net, but (naturally) now I can't find the link

930 under Restoration

I was starting to seriously think about this drivetrain survival question with big horsepower but seriously, if you can afford to get serious, drivetrain punishing horsepower, why would it be a problem to replace a $1000 to $1500 transaxle. Unless you are wanting to drag race the car, I doubt even 400 hp on the street would destroy the transaxle. On the street you'll lose traction before you break anything anyway. Of course nothing will save a transmission from a bad driver.

Danno

It's not the HP, but the torque that kills the tranny. I think with street tires, you can pump up the power/tq and the tranny would survive just fine because the tires would slip. If you're drag-racing the car with slicks... that's another matter.

930 under Restoration

Danno, It's a bit of both actually. Most everyone knows that torque is what "puts you back in the seat" but since most people talk about power in the form of HP, that is the measurement I chose to use. Tourque is accelerated power and horsepower is sustained power but you have to admit it's impossible to have 500ft lbs. of torque an 0 hp so you are really splitting hairs with the torque vs. hp thing. The way someone uses a clutch is way more important with the longevity of a drivetrain. Most transmissions can handle a lot of torque as long as it is delivered smoothly. If you have a high torque engine and just dump the clutch at peak torque, your transmission will suffer.

Hybrid VW

[quote] if you can afford to get serious, drivetrain punishing horsepower, why would it be a problem to replace a $1000 to $1500 transaxle. Unless you are wanting to drag race the car, I doubt even 400 hp on the street would destroy the transaxle. On the street you'll lose traction before you break anything anyway. <hr></blockquote>
Getting a $1000-1500 tranny wouldn't neccesarily be a problem, but if you have to start replacing it 1-2 times a year, it becomes a problem As for losing traction, that only works in the lower gears, and even then I wouldn't count on it. I've dragged my car 12-18 times and never broken it at the strip, but I have broken the tranny 3 times- twice on the street, and once on a lapping day. I stripped third gear pulling through 5500 RPM, and broke 2nd twice rolling into it, coming out of a corner.

I'm sure you know this, but when you start getting into the higher gears, you effectively put more strain on the transmission, since you are putting in the same torque, but less is getting out due to torque multiplication of the gears.

[quote] Most transmissions can handle a lot of torque as long as it is delivered smoothly. <hr></blockquote>
This is why I'm curious about the "real world" strength of the transmissions. Getting on it on a less than ideal surface will do more damage (IMO) than a couple of trips to the drag strip.

BTW, this forum moves FAST! <img src="graemlins/burnout.gif" border="0" alt="[burnout]" />

TheJonesBoy

I don't know about the A1 VW trannys, but the A2's are pretty pansy a$$ed. Doing off-road driving and autocrosses, I finished off 4 of them. One of which the input shaft ripped out through the trans case. (Remember: Push in the clutch and remove foot from gas when making a hard landing) Ok, that one I can't complain about, but they did have a tendency to loose teeth on 2nd gear as well as the ring and pinion. Usually the teeth that were floating around did the rest of the gears in. I also had problems with RedLine Synthetic gear lube. Metal paste everywhere. The VW synthetic 75w90 (IIRC) is nasty expensive but good.

I have been pretty happy with the trans on the 951. I don't beat it like I beat my VW, but I am in no way nice to it. I have heard of people destroying 1st gear and final's in drag racing, but I haven't heard many complaints about them being torn to shreads with power. I would avoid shock loading (sidestepping the clutch) and keep a spare trans handy when a used one e-bays cheaply.