Steve Lavigne

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by JasonECW:
<strong>Sid, part of my job is driving highlines...when you compare the viper to the 360 Modena, the 550 Maranello, the Aston Martin Vanquish, the SL 55, the Porsche Twin Turbos...well, I hate to sound like a snob but it's a bit ho-hum, and sits SO far below those other cars in just about every area, that I just can't get excited about a car that is nothing more than stupid fast in a straight line. There are about 50 things I can say about the viper that I DON'T like, and only about 3 that I do. It's not that I'm being particularly elitist...if you gave me the option of my 951 and the $30k difference for an early Viper GTS, all those other cars aside, I'd take the 951 and the money all day long! Just wanted to maybe put to bed the 'allure' of the Viper for those who've never had the opportunity to realize that they're not all that impressive to drive, not to toot my horn about *yawn* driving really slick cars.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">The Viper is definitely crude, but it definitely has more competencies than going 'stupid fast in a straight line'.

I just looked up the specs for a '98 Viper GTS. Granted, its curb weight of 3420 lbs is heavy, but not bad when compared to a 996TT and most definitely lighter than a Ferrari 550 or 575. It has 52% of its weight over the rear wheels. The motor makes a lot of power, but more importantly, has a very broad tractable powerband. The body design allows HUGE rubber to be stuffed under the wheels. This is one serious performance car, and can be made extremely serious with some careful modifications.

Granted, unlike most other sports cars sold in the US, this is NOT a luxury car. I suspect that you have had customers who have had trouble deciding between a 993TT and a M5. I doubt you have ever had anyone trying to decide between a Viper and a M5. Also, I imagine you would have a different take on the situation if Used Vipers sold for $145,000 instead of $45,000.

I drove a Viper GTS a few years ago for a few hours. I didn't get a chance to really get down and dirty with it, but I was definitely impressed. It has tons of grip, but takes serious competence to use it properly in anything other than a straight line. My inital impression was that it was a car that belonged on a racetrack. It wasn't very comfortable, the A/C didn't work very well, but it was 100% bad ***. Hopefully when I get to the point of being able to afford cars like a Viper, I won't give a rip about how many dead cows are in my interior.

bader$

The man I work for has a Z06 vette. He installed a
Lingenfelter S/C and got 474 rw hp. It is still just as docile as ever when u poke around in it. but sounds and runs like a hurricane when you get on it. It also handles so neutral. He has not yet found its breaking point.

SidViscous

Ahhhhhh but that's where it's different.

When you got your first 944, didn't you try to convinve all your buddies to get one.

The first time you slept with a hottie did you tell your friends. "Hey you've got to sleep with (insert whomever here&gt; she's great."

MachSchnell

As a salesman, don't mistake my honesty about a car for a bias because of price. If I can profit by the sale of it, I like it, but I'm also extremely honest with my customers. I have said many times that one of my favorite cars ever was the comptech NSX, which most certainly isn't a $145k car. It's not the price of the Viper that bothers me (I recommend MANY customers into Z-06's), it's the fit, finish, and driveability. There are MANY cars which, for the $, can be easily made to compete with the viper. There is little argument that this isn't one of the fastest affordable production cars, but, there is a LOT more to a car than it's speed. My biggest issue, and the one I addressed foremost, is that the Viper (depite having a near 50/50 weight distribution) is unbelievably twitchy, and not very fun to drive. It's a car that requires you to pay 100% attention 100% of the time, and that is a very trying experience. Granted, the car may be good on paper, but the skidpad, weight distribution, and 0-60 numbers don't always tell the tale. If a car is so difficult to drive the way it wants to (and believe me, the Viper ALWAYS wants to be going fast, which is the bulk of the problem...it's nearly impossible to drive the car within it's handling limits), it becomes significantly less fun to drive. This is one of the reasons I decided to go 951 over the 930 (which is about as close to always being on the edge as the Viper...when the turbo snaps in, that rear engine lightweight always wants to come a$$ around)

Price notwithstanding, that's why I love the 993TT, 360 Modena, and not surprisingly, the 951...all these cars have power and handling characteristics which make the driver feel connected, in control at nearly all times, and within the boundaries of their capabilities. Each has some power to give if you feel like you need it, each can be reigned in when necessary, and none feel like they are always riding on the ragged edge. Granted I'm talking about HUGE price differentials, but I define a car by more than it's power to weight ratio, power to price ratio, and/or refinement.

MachSchnell

Sid, good point, I stand humbly corrected! ;o)

BTW - where in NH are you? I grew up in Exeter/East Kingston, just moved down here a few years ago.

SidViscous

I don't disagree with you, can't really, never having even sat in any of them.

However. They are different cars, and they do different things. How many Ferraris do you see on the race track. You do see some of the high end Porsches, but that is a completely different category of car and driver.

How many Ferraris or Aston's do you sell to serious drivers.

I seem to recall that the original Lambo's were even harder to drive (pedal strength, steering, and backing up required you to open the door and half sit out of the car so you could see where you were going) but who would argue that it was not desirable.

Panteras have miserable brakes compared to more modern cars. I'd trade my 944 for one in a heart beat.

No The Viper is not refined. It's the difference between an airbrushed playmate and the woman you met in that dive bar last night with Huge knockers.

Maybe you can't get her, but it's worth trying. But you can't even get into the places that playmates hang out at.

Live in Nashua now. But lived in Derry and Mason too.

Spent some time growing up in South Miami, Homestead and Boca as well.

Never liked Pimpano beach though. I mean yeah the beaches are nice, but getting around town is hard unless you know what to do. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

GOBOGIE

I wouldn't mide going for a ride in that!

MachSchnell

Ferraris on the track? Are you serious? That's where they're best! The 360 is one of the most fun track cars ever! You may not see them at a ton of pca events, but fca and local ferrari dealers do track events for both street and privately owned challenge cars all the time! I agree on the lambos (one of the ones I left out, and probably a good testament that tons of $ doesn't mean tons of fun! As for how many ferraris and/or astons do I sell to serious drivers? Dang, a heck of a lot! Before I got into this business, I had a misconception that a lot of guys buying these types of cars were people with "too much bloody money" throwing it at ******* substitutes, and believe me, that element is out there, but I'd say it's a minority, at least my customers...many of my buyers are serious car freaks, which is pretty reassuring! Many do track events regularly, many are racers, and even more have street toys and track toys.

Randy_J

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by Luke:
[QB] <img src="http://members.rennlist.com/luke/8.jpg" alt=" - " /> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">The 944/951 looks amazingly fresh for a 20 year old design! 500hp from 8L vs 247 from 2.5L hhmmmmm

Danno

"well, I hate to sound like a snob but it's a bit ho-hum, and sits SO far below those other cars in just about every area, that I just can't get excited about a car that is nothing more than stupid fast in a straight line."

There were comparison articles in the various mags several years ago comparing the Viper to the Ferrari, 911-TT, etc. There was even one with Mario Andretti and he scored the Viper dead last. The points totals also didn't score very well for the Viper even though it won outright in most of the performance categories (what's with those braking numbers ??? ).

What Mario and Jason talked about above, is handling which is distinctly different from performance numbers. Performance is easy, just take specification numbers like displacement, tire-width, spring-rates and just make them bigger. You'll get better 'performance', but will you get better 'handling'? In Mario's review, it's a resounding NO.

Handling may be summed up as the communications and dance between driver and machine. You've seen good dancers and you've seen bad dancers, it doesn't matter how much their outfits cost. This connection between driver and machine is so hard to quantify, but you know it instantly when you drive a car. And when it works well, it's a divine experience, bordering on the spiritual...

Check this out for Ferraris on the track: <a href="http://www.nsxfiles.com/fontana_ferrari.htm" target="_blank">NSX Files Chp.84 - Ferrari Club at Calif.Speedway</a>

turbo944

Well, keep reading on the NSX Files too....the only group of people who run track events out there where Doug and his crew run and beat the times of the S2000 club are the Viper Club. Hands down nobody else has been able to offer up the ante that their group of stock vehicles are faster around the track than a bunch of S2000s besides the Vipers. Maybe they are twitchy and maybe this is great for the track where you should be concentrating on driving 100% of the time, but the numbers are out there from people who are not pro drivers and drive on the track. Even the NSXers haven't beaten the S2000 club....

I've driven lots of cars, but not a Viper, so I can't say for sure on it...but I think that fact speaks for itself. The Viper has an audience and a loyal following among it's proponents and they go out and kick a lot of butt!

I do agree that for the money I'll have one of those hard to drive used Lambos instead of a Viper though....or a 3.6 911 Turbo or something....

Cheers!

Steve Lavigne

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by Danno:
<strong>There were comparison articles in the various mags several years ago comparing the Viper to the Ferrari, 911-TT, etc. There was even one with Mario Andretti and he scored the Viper dead last. The points totals also didn't score very well for the Viper even though it won outright in most of the performance categories (what's with those braking numbers ??? ).</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">IIRC, that was an article in Road & Track ~1999. My impression of the article was that they said the Viper had brutal performance in most dimensions, basically a racecar with license plates, but not a very fun street car. That dovetails with my impression after driving it for a bit that it was a car that belonged on a racetrack. I figured that driving it hard on the street would make you dead or in jail real quick.

Also, in that same article, I think the Viper backed up its specs and got the best lap time of all the cars. It got rated last place, but what would you expect from a winemaker that has driven far faster racecars and is likely relatively unimpressed by the performance of any streetcar.

Rich Sandor

The whole point of the Viper is to have flashy looks and raw unadulterated power. If you want comfort and civility, you're not going to go the Viper route.

Porsh-uh

The Viper is simply about having more horsepower, more grip, and more audacity than anyone else. The reason it does so well on the track compared to other street cars is that it simply has more grip due to copious amounts of rubber you can stuff under those ugly fenders and more horsepower due to the larger combustible volume you can stuff under that ugly hood. However, that does not make it refined or well-balanced or anything else a majority of people would use to describe a great sports car. Remember when the F40 came out? Many magazine said it was like driving a racecar on the street. However, none of them said it was "brutish". It was wild and raw, but never brutish. Of course, the Viper is what American muscle has always been about. It is simly the most raw and certainly brutish car available. Am I going to try to pass that off as "bad"? No. Simply not my taste. But I don't think anyone here would state that the Viper is an engineering marvel that some of these other cars we have mentioned is. Of course, in my estimation... Porsche won the MORE, MORE, MORE battle long ago with the 917K Can-Am cars. That car had more grip and more power than any other race possibly ever. And no to mention more wins. They dominated that series every year they were in it.