OT: Mini Cooper and the Ford F150, a matter of safety
02-12-2003 | 11:54 PM
#1
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Three Wheelin'
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From: LA, Calif., USA
OT: Mini Cooper and the Ford F150, a matter of safety
Ran across this <a href="http://www.bridger.us/2002/12/16/CrashTestingMINICooperVsFordF150" target="_blank">link</a> today.
<img src="http://www.bridger.us/mini/pictures/crashtest/0110_2_34.jpg" alt=" - " />
<img src="http://www.bridger.us/mini/pictures/crashtest/0222_2_15.jpg" alt=" - " />
They were tested at 40 Mph / 65 kph.
quote (from the link):
"My point is (and it's one that's backed up by every study I've ever seen) that larger trucks and SUVs don't offer the protection most people believe they do. On average they are more dangerous not only to others on the road but to their occupants as well. This test is just one way it's illustrated."
Read the link, it's far more interesting than my post.
<img src="http://www.bridger.us/mini/pictures/crashtest/0110_2_34.jpg" alt=" - " />
<img src="http://www.bridger.us/mini/pictures/crashtest/0222_2_15.jpg" alt=" - " />
They were tested at 40 Mph / 65 kph.
quote (from the link):
"My point is (and it's one that's backed up by every study I've ever seen) that larger trucks and SUVs don't offer the protection most people believe they do. On average they are more dangerous not only to others on the road but to their occupants as well. This test is just one way it's illustrated."
Read the link, it's far more interesting than my post.
02-13-2003 | 12:03 AM
#2
Burning Brakes
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 982
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From: Montréal, Canada
Essentially, what we see in the F-150 are longer distances between structural members, therefore the loads on critical members are higher. As a result, these members fail earlier even though the engineers at Detroit have tried desperately to compensate for this fact through the use of more material. The image of the Mini reminds me of the crash test done on the VW New Beetle a few years back. I believe that in that case, the dash moved about an inch and a half and pedal tray about 1 inch in a similar frontal impact test.
Unfortunately, simple laws of physics aslo dictate that one on one, more weight wins... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" />
Unfortunately, simple laws of physics aslo dictate that one on one, more weight wins... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" />
02-13-2003 | 12:25 AM
#5
Nerd Herder
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From: Central Illinois. Cornfields a plenty.
But- keep in mind the greater weight of the F150 can pack a larger whallop in the OTHER VEHICLE! Thats what scares me about the trucks on the highway- most of them just crawl right OVER us.
This is into a brick wall. can you imagine the change in attitude if these 2 vehicles went head on into each other at 55 mph each?
This is into a brick wall. can you imagine the change in attitude if these 2 vehicles went head on into each other at 55 mph each?
02-13-2003 | 12:30 AM
#6
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Three Wheelin'
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From: LA, Calif., USA
My cousin coming from El Lay to SF was driving a BMW 328 Cabrio (E36) one weekend. She was doing 90Mph/144kph blew a tire, and flipped and went over the edge. She was on the interstate 5. SHe had her seatbelt on and made it out with scratches, bruised ribs and a few cuts. The car was totalled. What does she do? After she recuperated she went out and got herself a Mitsubishi Montero 4WD. Crazy woman. Didn't forgive fher for that one.
02-13-2003 | 12:41 AM
#7
Burning Brakes
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 982
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From: Montréal, Canada
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by deni durrell:
<strong>What does she do? After she recuperated she went out and got herself a Mitsubishi Montero 4WD.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">You mean THE most roll-over prone SUV on the market??? I wouldn't forgive her either...
<strong>What does she do? After she recuperated she went out and got herself a Mitsubishi Montero 4WD.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">You mean THE most roll-over prone SUV on the market??? I wouldn't forgive her either...
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02-13-2003 | 12:56 AM
#8
Addict
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From: Shawnee, KS
That's like apples and oranges. One's unibody and the other body-on-frame...not to mention the weight and physics that come into play.
Plus how many of us hit brick walls. It's always another car. And if that Mini ran into the front of that truck...the entire Mini would look like the front clip of it self.
To me that doesn't really prove anything other then to steer clear of brick walls.
Plus how many of us hit brick walls. It's always another car. And if that Mini ran into the front of that truck...the entire Mini would look like the front clip of it self.
To me that doesn't really prove anything other then to steer clear of brick walls.
02-13-2003 | 01:06 AM
#9
Burning Brakes
Joined: Feb 2002
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From: Seattle, WA
Apple and oranges? They're both cars running into things, who cares how they're made, you're not going to be thinking about that when you're hitting something. The Mini held up better, the pictures speak for themselves.
02-13-2003 | 01:55 AM
#11
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Three Wheelin'
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From: LA, Calif., USA
Ok, I'll post the text on the site (why not?)...
Straight from the site itself:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">
Wow. Both of these vehicles hit the exact same off-set barrier at 40mph. Now there's no question what would win in a head-on collesion between the two but then again the majority of accidents involve only a single car. All you have to do is look at the dummy's legs and you can get an idea of what would happen if you hit a wall in either car. The MINI had almost no intrusion which "indicates that the driver's survival space was maintained very well" - the F150 on the other hand had "Major collapse of the occupant compartment that left little survival space for the driver."
I'm interested in how a company could create a modern vehicle that could perform so badly on this test. Furthermore Ford had lots of space to work with to make this a safe vehicle. For BMW/MINI to do the job in 1/4 the space is what engineering is all about.
Keep in mind also this is the best selling vehicle in the US. One would think that Ford, knowing this, would have put more effort into the engineering of this truck. It gets worse; this platform is also the basis of both the Ford Expidition and to some extent the Ford Excursion. Both are marketed to be tough, safe, go anywhere SUVs and our sold as family transportation.
Why haven't we seen Dateline covering this. Why are they more interested in 5mph bumper tests - shouldn't this be front page news somewhere? There are millions F150s out there.
You can see the full crash results of the MINI Cooper <a href="http://www.iihs.org/vehicle_ratings/ce/html/0222.htm#1" target="_blank">here</a> and the Ford F150 <a href="http://www.iihs.org/vehicle_ratings/ce/html/0110.htm" target="_blank">here</a>.
Comments:
They do it because they can. I think the government is willing to look the other way on a lot of things because the economy is tight. Why is this not getting attention from the media? Maybe because they all drive these ridiculous vehicles? I don't know. - Matthew <mg@matthewgifford.com> 12/17/2002 1:16 PM
Makes you realize how little size really matters in some cases when it comes to safety. - Gabriel <gabrielbridger@mac.com> 12/17/2002 3:58 PM
Insurance Institute for Highway Safety (hwysafety.org) quote: "Why can't I compare vehicles from different categories? The kinetic energy a vehicle must absorb in a crash test increases with vehicle weight, so offset tests are more demanding of heavier vehicles. But people in heavier vehicles in real-world, 2-vehicle crashes typically fare better than people in lighter vehicles (in many single-vehicle crashes, weight offers no safety advantage). This is why test results shouldn’t be compared among vehicles with large weight differences." - Jason <nobody@nowhere.org> 2/8/2003 10:44 AM
From my post; "Now there's no question what would win in a head-on collesion between the two but then again the majority of accidents involve only a single car" My point isn't to compare how the cars would do in a collision with each other. Since most accidents involve only one car my point is I was comparing the results of the off-set crash tests themselves. This indicates how well a car is made and how much time the company spent designing crash safety into them. My point is (and it's one that's backed up by every study I've ever seen) that larger trucks and SUVs don't offer the protection most people believe they do. On average they are more dangerous not only to others on the road but to their occupants as well. This test is just one way it's illustrated.
Gabe <gabriel@bridger.us> 2/8/2003 1:30 PM
That's incredibly flawed logic, Jason. If identical tests are performed on vehicles, the results can, and should, be compared. That the vehicles are from different classes doesn't make the dummy in the pickup any less dead. - Matthew <mg@matthewgifford.com> 2/12/2003 12:42 PM</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Site: <a href="http://www.bridger.us/2002/12/16/CrashTestingMINICooperVsFordF150" target="_blank">http://www.bridger.us/2002/12/16/CrashTestingMINICooperVsFordF150</a>
Straight from the site itself:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">
Wow. Both of these vehicles hit the exact same off-set barrier at 40mph. Now there's no question what would win in a head-on collesion between the two but then again the majority of accidents involve only a single car. All you have to do is look at the dummy's legs and you can get an idea of what would happen if you hit a wall in either car. The MINI had almost no intrusion which "indicates that the driver's survival space was maintained very well" - the F150 on the other hand had "Major collapse of the occupant compartment that left little survival space for the driver."
I'm interested in how a company could create a modern vehicle that could perform so badly on this test. Furthermore Ford had lots of space to work with to make this a safe vehicle. For BMW/MINI to do the job in 1/4 the space is what engineering is all about.
Keep in mind also this is the best selling vehicle in the US. One would think that Ford, knowing this, would have put more effort into the engineering of this truck. It gets worse; this platform is also the basis of both the Ford Expidition and to some extent the Ford Excursion. Both are marketed to be tough, safe, go anywhere SUVs and our sold as family transportation.
Why haven't we seen Dateline covering this. Why are they more interested in 5mph bumper tests - shouldn't this be front page news somewhere? There are millions F150s out there.
You can see the full crash results of the MINI Cooper <a href="http://www.iihs.org/vehicle_ratings/ce/html/0222.htm#1" target="_blank">here</a> and the Ford F150 <a href="http://www.iihs.org/vehicle_ratings/ce/html/0110.htm" target="_blank">here</a>.
Comments:
They do it because they can. I think the government is willing to look the other way on a lot of things because the economy is tight. Why is this not getting attention from the media? Maybe because they all drive these ridiculous vehicles? I don't know. - Matthew <mg@matthewgifford.com> 12/17/2002 1:16 PM
Makes you realize how little size really matters in some cases when it comes to safety. - Gabriel <gabrielbridger@mac.com> 12/17/2002 3:58 PM
Insurance Institute for Highway Safety (hwysafety.org) quote: "Why can't I compare vehicles from different categories? The kinetic energy a vehicle must absorb in a crash test increases with vehicle weight, so offset tests are more demanding of heavier vehicles. But people in heavier vehicles in real-world, 2-vehicle crashes typically fare better than people in lighter vehicles (in many single-vehicle crashes, weight offers no safety advantage). This is why test results shouldn’t be compared among vehicles with large weight differences." - Jason <nobody@nowhere.org> 2/8/2003 10:44 AM
From my post; "Now there's no question what would win in a head-on collesion between the two but then again the majority of accidents involve only a single car" My point isn't to compare how the cars would do in a collision with each other. Since most accidents involve only one car my point is I was comparing the results of the off-set crash tests themselves. This indicates how well a car is made and how much time the company spent designing crash safety into them. My point is (and it's one that's backed up by every study I've ever seen) that larger trucks and SUVs don't offer the protection most people believe they do. On average they are more dangerous not only to others on the road but to their occupants as well. This test is just one way it's illustrated.
Gabe <gabriel@bridger.us> 2/8/2003 1:30 PM
That's incredibly flawed logic, Jason. If identical tests are performed on vehicles, the results can, and should, be compared. That the vehicles are from different classes doesn't make the dummy in the pickup any less dead. - Matthew <mg@matthewgifford.com> 2/12/2003 12:42 PM</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Site: <a href="http://www.bridger.us/2002/12/16/CrashTestingMINICooperVsFordF150" target="_blank">http://www.bridger.us/2002/12/16/CrashTestingMINICooperVsFordF150</a>
02-13-2003 | 08:07 AM
#12
Racer
Joined: Jan 2002
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From: Norrköping, Sweden
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by deni durrell:
<strong>My cousin coming from El Lay to SF was driving a BMW 328 Cabrio (E36) one weekend. She was doing 90Mph/144kph blew a tire, and flipped and went over the edge. She was on the interstate 5. SHe had her seatbelt on and made it out with scratches, bruised ribs and a few cuts. The car was totalled. What does she do? After she recuperated she went out and got herself a Mitsubishi Montero 4WD. Crazy woman. Didn't forgive fher for that one.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">If I survive a 144 kph crash I will continue driving that kind of car I survived in. I would not go and buy a first class "flip" mobile the next day
//Magnus
<strong>My cousin coming from El Lay to SF was driving a BMW 328 Cabrio (E36) one weekend. She was doing 90Mph/144kph blew a tire, and flipped and went over the edge. She was on the interstate 5. SHe had her seatbelt on and made it out with scratches, bruised ribs and a few cuts. The car was totalled. What does she do? After she recuperated she went out and got herself a Mitsubishi Montero 4WD. Crazy woman. Didn't forgive fher for that one.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">If I survive a 144 kph crash I will continue driving that kind of car I survived in. I would not go and buy a first class "flip" mobile the next day
//Magnus
02-13-2003 | 10:14 AM
#13
Burning Brakes
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 982
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From: Montréal, Canada
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Steve Lavigne:
<strong>Thank god for that third door!
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">That, in fact was what I was referring to with my initial post... I remember the first time I saw the current F-150 at the Montreal International Auto Show. My dad was toying with the idea of buying a truck. While we were looking at the F-150 some closed the 3rd with some force. The impact of the door caused the roof structure to move quite a bit. In any case, my dad walked away and hasn't looked at an American truck since.
<strong>Thank god for that third door!
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">That, in fact was what I was referring to with my initial post... I remember the first time I saw the current F-150 at the Montreal International Auto Show. My dad was toying with the idea of buying a truck. While we were looking at the F-150 some closed the 3rd with some force. The impact of the door caused the roof structure to move quite a bit. In any case, my dad walked away and hasn't looked at an American truck since.
02-13-2003 | 12:09 PM
#15
Former Vendor
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 2,279
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From: fortistuning.fi
Hi!
I just read an article about head-on collision between big and small.Cars were Volkswagen Phaeton (2310 kg) and Volkswagen Polo (1311 kg).It was in auto,motor und sport,a major German magazine and named "Do they live longer up there" ..in foodchain,I guess. I couldn't create a direct link,but try this:
<a href="http://auto.t-online.de/AU/DE/de/homepage.jhtml?navi_param=test_technik&news_newsart=autotests&area_navig ation=weitere_tests&report=bericht&repId=%2FAU%2FDE%2Fde%2Fcontentreposi tor" target="_blank">http://auto.t-online.de/AU/DE/de/homepage.jhtml?navi_param=test_technik&news_newsart=autotests&area_navig ation=weitere_tests&report=bericht&repId=%2FAU%2FDE%2Fde%2Fcontentreposi tor</a> ies%2FDE_de_Test_Technik_otherTestReportRepositoryXML%2FXML%2FTestTechni k574.xm
It's long,isn't it? and then click "Weitere Test" and then select
"Phaeton-Polo: Leben die da oben länger?".
There you can see videos about the crash.The point is that with proper design you can get safe small cars.And now a hasty conclusion:you also can build crappy Fords... I don't know the exact weight of a F-150 (to compare it with Phaeton),but I don't want to sit in one while crashing against anything larger than a golf-cart.Only advantage of F-150 is it's height,bumper is higher than in a ordinary car so you can ran over a smaller vehicle...but what happens when two behemoths alike collide??
Pete
PS.Please create a working link...
I just read an article about head-on collision between big and small.Cars were Volkswagen Phaeton (2310 kg) and Volkswagen Polo (1311 kg).It was in auto,motor und sport,a major German magazine and named "Do they live longer up there" ..in foodchain,I guess. I couldn't create a direct link,but try this:
<a href="http://auto.t-online.de/AU/DE/de/homepage.jhtml?navi_param=test_technik&news_newsart=autotests&area_navig ation=weitere_tests&report=bericht&repId=%2FAU%2FDE%2Fde%2Fcontentreposi tor" target="_blank">http://auto.t-online.de/AU/DE/de/homepage.jhtml?navi_param=test_technik&news_newsart=autotests&area_navig ation=weitere_tests&report=bericht&repId=%2FAU%2FDE%2Fde%2Fcontentreposi tor</a> ies%2FDE_de_Test_Technik_otherTestReportRepositoryXML%2FXML%2FTestTechni k574.xm
It's long,isn't it?
and then click "Weitere Test" and then select "Phaeton-Polo: Leben die da oben länger?".
There you can see videos about the crash.The point is that with proper design you can get safe small cars.And now a hasty conclusion:you also can build crappy Fords... I don't know the exact weight of a F-150 (to compare it with Phaeton),but I don't want to sit in one while crashing against anything larger than a golf-cart.Only advantage of F-150 is it's height,bumper is higher than in a ordinary car so you can ran over a smaller vehicle...but what happens when two behemoths alike collide??
Pete
PS.Please create a working link...