VR 944 PROJECT
06-08-2009, 01:12 AM
#46
The narrative lets me live vicariously -- you'll probably complete this project for half what I'm paying for the head work on my 944S, in half the time, and many times more imaginatively!
I lived and breathed VWs growing up, and when they first put the VR6 in a GTi here in Canada, I drove 300km just to test drive one. This has really caught my attention.
Subscribed. Very nice work.
I lived and breathed VWs growing up, and when they first put the VR6 in a GTi here in Canada, I drove 300km just to test drive one. This has really caught my attention.
Subscribed. Very nice work.
06-08-2009, 01:24 AM
#47
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06-08-2009, 01:29 AM
#48
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The narrative lets me live vicariously -- you'll probably complete this project for half what I'm paying for the head work on my 944S, in half the time, and many times more imaginatively!
I lived and breathed VWs growing up, and when they first put the VR6 in a GTi here in Canada, I drove 300km just to test drive one. This has really caught my attention.
Subscribed. Very nice work.
I lived and breathed VWs growing up, and when they first put the VR6 in a GTi here in Canada, I drove 300km just to test drive one. This has really caught my attention.
Subscribed. Very nice work.
06-08-2009, 10:11 AM
#49
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Great thread. Been reading into sensible 944 power options (read: no truck motors) for a week or so. This fella @ vwvortex is using a similar solution to mate his Corrado motor to the 924 torque tube.
Good luck. I've just picked up a 924S for race use, and a couple of buddies are shopping for '44 engined parts cars. We're all following closely, and rooting for ya...
Good luck. I've just picked up a 924S for race use, and a couple of buddies are shopping for '44 engined parts cars. We're all following closely, and rooting for ya...
06-08-2009, 11:02 AM
#50
Interesting project, i wonder why my australian friend wrote he does not like VR6 engine's sound. My eldest son owns a VR6 Golf III and it's a real nice car. I just love the sound of his car. He has a special made exhaust with race cat, also intake is a bit modified, engine is quite stock, we just changed chip. Your mod is far more interesting than putting old tech V8 engine in.Keep up good work, like to see lots of pictures of your project 
06-08-2009, 11:19 AM
#52
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After doing some research, I think I've finally discovered how this can be done...and so, it proceeds.
About a year and a half ago, I purchased an '84 944, with a fairly decent interior, so-so body, and the usual timing-belt damaged engine. I initially was thinking LS-1 swap...but the more I thought about it, the more I felt it would alter the fundamental character of the car. I don't want a Porsche that sounds like a taxicab, and if I wanted a Camaro or Corvette, I could've bought one.
The project stood in limbo for awhile...until I purchased a MkII Jetta with a VR6 swap and some slightly warmed over software (I still don't know where the rev limiter is yet). I'm pretty impressed with the torque, its ability to pull through seven grand, and its nasty snarl.
I looked at my VR motor,and was struck by its compact size. I began to measure, and was dumbfounded to discover that despite two more cylinders, and .3 liters more displacement, the VR6 is actually smaller in both height and length than the Zuffenhausen-built 2.5. It also makes roughly 40-45 more hp at the crank. I began asking around, and was told it couldn't be transplanted into a RWD car, without some serious custom fabrication, particularly the bellhousing. One evening while haunting the VW boards, looking for ideas, I stumbled across a guy who was building a RWD Corrado, using components salvaged from our favorite P-car...and the solution I'd been looking for was staring me in the face.
To date, I've yanked the old motor, modified a VW bellhousing to delete the FWD differential case, and fabricated an adapter plate to enable it to be attached to the torque tube assembly. Now I've begun test fitting the various components. The clutch, PP, fork, throwout bearing, and slave cylinder will all come from the VW parts bin. The clutch disc itself *may* need to be a custom unit...but it may not. The biggest hurdle encountered so far will be modification of the drive tunnel to accommodate the high mounted VR6 starter, but even that will be fairly minor, as it will not interfere with the pedal assemblies or shifter, although the brake lines will likely be rerouted slightly.
I'll post pics later...time for bed.
(Moderator, if this belongs somewhere else, please feel free to send it where it belongs. Thanks!)
About a year and a half ago, I purchased an '84 944, with a fairly decent interior, so-so body, and the usual timing-belt damaged engine. I initially was thinking LS-1 swap...but the more I thought about it, the more I felt it would alter the fundamental character of the car. I don't want a Porsche that sounds like a taxicab, and if I wanted a Camaro or Corvette, I could've bought one.
The project stood in limbo for awhile...until I purchased a MkII Jetta with a VR6 swap and some slightly warmed over software (I still don't know where the rev limiter is yet). I'm pretty impressed with the torque, its ability to pull through seven grand, and its nasty snarl.
I looked at my VR motor,and was struck by its compact size. I began to measure, and was dumbfounded to discover that despite two more cylinders, and .3 liters more displacement, the VR6 is actually smaller in both height and length than the Zuffenhausen-built 2.5. It also makes roughly 40-45 more hp at the crank. I began asking around, and was told it couldn't be transplanted into a RWD car, without some serious custom fabrication, particularly the bellhousing. One evening while haunting the VW boards, looking for ideas, I stumbled across a guy who was building a RWD Corrado, using components salvaged from our favorite P-car...and the solution I'd been looking for was staring me in the face.
To date, I've yanked the old motor, modified a VW bellhousing to delete the FWD differential case, and fabricated an adapter plate to enable it to be attached to the torque tube assembly. Now I've begun test fitting the various components. The clutch, PP, fork, throwout bearing, and slave cylinder will all come from the VW parts bin. The clutch disc itself *may* need to be a custom unit...but it may not. The biggest hurdle encountered so far will be modification of the drive tunnel to accommodate the high mounted VR6 starter, but even that will be fairly minor, as it will not interfere with the pedal assemblies or shifter, although the brake lines will likely be rerouted slightly.
I'll post pics later...time for bed.
(Moderator, if this belongs somewhere else, please feel free to send it where it belongs. Thanks!)
waste of time and money...it is without doubt the answer to a question that need NOT be asked. btw..it is a pretty easy swap
06-08-2009, 04:23 PM
#54
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Sir, I've always been of the opinion that it is better to keep one's mouth closed, and be thought a fool, than to open it, and remove all doubt. It's my time, my car, and my money. You are welcome to contribute, if you have something constructive to say.
06-08-2009, 05:04 PM
#55
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whatever...replace the 150 or so hp porsche motor with a 172 hp motor...seems a fools errand to me. what do I know right? if you took the time to look..it was done.
Good luck, your gonna spend alot of time wasting $ when you can stick an s or s2 motor in cheaper. In order to get any power from a vr6, your gonna sink some cash into it.
look for a vw fox with a vr swap...just advice
But what would I know anyway?....right? this place is becoming the new vw vortex.
Good luck, your gonna spend alot of time wasting $ when you can stick an s or s2 motor in cheaper. In order to get any power from a vr6, your gonna sink some cash into it.
look for a vw fox with a vr swap...just advice
But what would I know anyway?....right? this place is becoming the new vw vortex.
06-08-2009, 05:39 PM
#56
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whatever...replace the 150 or so hp porsche motor with a 172 hp motor...seems a fools errand to me. what do I know right? if you took the time to look..it was done.
Good luck, your gonna spend alot of time wasting $ when you can stick an s or s2 motor in cheaper. In order to get any power from a vr6, your gonna sink some cash into it.
look for a vw fox with a vr swap...just advice
But what would I know anyway?....right? this place is becoming the new vw vortex.
Good luck, your gonna spend alot of time wasting $ when you can stick an s or s2 motor in cheaper. In order to get any power from a vr6, your gonna sink some cash into it.
look for a vw fox with a vr swap...just advice
But what would I know anyway?....right? this place is becoming the new vw vortex.
06-08-2009, 07:01 PM
#57
At the risk of retreading old ground, I think this swap has a lot going for it if you consider the end result, rather than the raw figures: the VR6 has great dynamics, likes to rev, and can be tuned about as cheaply as the small block chev motor which is the standard swap candidate.
More importantly, though, a 944's engine should be willing to rev, have a fairly wide power band, work with existing gearing, and (perhaps I'm in the minority in this opinion) have less than 250 HP at the wheels. More power than that and I think the car would lose its finesse.
More importantly, though, a 944's engine should be willing to rev, have a fairly wide power band, work with existing gearing, and (perhaps I'm in the minority in this opinion) have less than 250 HP at the wheels. More power than that and I think the car would lose its finesse.
06-09-2009, 12:44 AM
#59
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i personally think id prefer an "S3" over the 968 body so the whole swap kinda makes sense to me.
isnt the s2 also lighter than a stock 968?
06-09-2009, 01:02 AM
#60
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Nick, aren't you the guy who sold his Porsche because you were terrified of the intermediate shaft failing?
944 owners are in the same boat, only we don't have PCNA to take care of our "design failure". I'm swapping a motor that requires extensive replacements (timing belt, balance shaft belt, water pump, pulleys, and tensioner) at Porsche prices and labor (to do the job yourself properly requires the use of a tool that costs half a grand, I know because I bought one) every 40,000 miles, for one that will go 100,000 on a set of chains. To NOT replace ALL those items at the same time, is the same risk as not changing the belts, because if any one of them fails, the result is the same; cracked pistons and/or bent/broken valves, and then you're REALLY talking expense.
The VR motor is smaller and makes more power before anything is done to it. I don't want an American V-8, because I think it changes the fundamental character of the car (if I wanted a Camaro or Corvette, I'd buy one, lol). The VR will sit further back in the chassis, and weight bias will be affected less than 3%.
Having owned 944's before, I can tell you that a lot of 944 owners who've been through the broken timing belt/roller/water pump blues would give their eyeteeth for an alternative (besides LS/LT conversions) to the Porsche motor, particularly one that uses a European engine. I have seen one similar swap, where a guy swapped in an Audi five cylinder.
If you're okay with the 944 motor as designed, fine. If I were Roush or someone like that, with unlimited access to machine shop and engineering facilities, I'd probably attempt to design something like a gear-driven replacement for the 944 timing belt, balance shaft belt, etc...but I'm not.
I want an alternative to the 944 engine which DOESN'T involve a small-block Chevy. The engine which I chose happens to have a VW logo on it; it also happens to be the engine from which the 3.2 Cayenne motor was designed, so if your big beef is that it isn't a Porsche engine, (which I think is what's really eating you) then think of it as a Porsche engine that hadn't made it into a Porsche yet!!!
As I said before, those who wish to CONSTRUCTIVELY comment (or criticize!) are welcome to do so...if ALL you have to contribute is negativity, and/or why it's a waste of time, yada, yada, yada, please do me a favor, don't waste your breath, and don't read this thread or post here.
Sorry for the rant, folks, but this is why I almost didn't start this thread in the first place...and the people who have told me they're looking for the same sort of alternative is why I WILL keep this project AND this thread going to completion.
944 owners are in the same boat, only we don't have PCNA to take care of our "design failure". I'm swapping a motor that requires extensive replacements (timing belt, balance shaft belt, water pump, pulleys, and tensioner) at Porsche prices and labor (to do the job yourself properly requires the use of a tool that costs half a grand, I know because I bought one) every 40,000 miles, for one that will go 100,000 on a set of chains. To NOT replace ALL those items at the same time, is the same risk as not changing the belts, because if any one of them fails, the result is the same; cracked pistons and/or bent/broken valves, and then you're REALLY talking expense.
The VR motor is smaller and makes more power before anything is done to it. I don't want an American V-8, because I think it changes the fundamental character of the car (if I wanted a Camaro or Corvette, I'd buy one, lol). The VR will sit further back in the chassis, and weight bias will be affected less than 3%.
Having owned 944's before, I can tell you that a lot of 944 owners who've been through the broken timing belt/roller/water pump blues would give their eyeteeth for an alternative (besides LS/LT conversions) to the Porsche motor, particularly one that uses a European engine. I have seen one similar swap, where a guy swapped in an Audi five cylinder.
If you're okay with the 944 motor as designed, fine. If I were Roush or someone like that, with unlimited access to machine shop and engineering facilities, I'd probably attempt to design something like a gear-driven replacement for the 944 timing belt, balance shaft belt, etc...but I'm not.
I want an alternative to the 944 engine which DOESN'T involve a small-block Chevy. The engine which I chose happens to have a VW logo on it; it also happens to be the engine from which the 3.2 Cayenne motor was designed, so if your big beef is that it isn't a Porsche engine, (which I think is what's really eating you) then think of it as a Porsche engine that hadn't made it into a Porsche yet!!!
As I said before, those who wish to CONSTRUCTIVELY comment (or criticize!) are welcome to do so...if ALL you have to contribute is negativity, and/or why it's a waste of time, yada, yada, yada, please do me a favor, don't waste your breath, and don't read this thread or post here.
Sorry for the rant, folks, but this is why I almost didn't start this thread in the first place...and the people who have told me they're looking for the same sort of alternative is why I WILL keep this project AND this thread going to completion.
Last edited by Vonov; 06-09-2009 at 01:28 AM.