PrerYDoG

OKay, I'm taking it upon myself to work on the car as I have two weeks of vacation (now down to a week an a half, stupid holidays!). Anyways, I'm working on the IceShark kit and I have hit a few snags...

Snag 1. The stupid voltage regulator...wtf is up with this thing? I can't bolt the new one in (screw it in technically), as the plastic piece of the regulator bumps into the alternator, allowing only one side to be screwed on, and making "clearance" issues for the other screw to get on. I looked at the old Bosch regulator that I took off and noticed it had beed GROUND DOWN. Do I need to do this with the new one too? Has anyone else had to do this? WTF? ... Which leads to...

Snag B. Wtf is this drilling a 1/2" hole at the 1:30 position on the alternator looking at it from the big opening ... ? Not clear to me, but then again I'm spacially challenged (Yes dear, that's 10" you're looking at!). What I need to know is, where does this hole go if I'm looking at the alternator, from the top of the car, with it all installed (which I'm not, but I can picture this), or some easy derivation of that.


Thanks, and, if you can't tell, this is a little urgent, as the car is bleeding out onto my garage floor (slow trickle of fluids...ya know, oil out of the air pipes, anti-freeze from the coolant pipes, blood out of the...well, you get the picture).


Thanks!

IceShark

Mark, you are the second guy out of over 100 that has reported this voltage regulator fitment problem. I don't know what the deal is, if Bosch put out a few oddball back castings for their alternators or what.

Guy number #1 that reported the problem did exactly as you are thinking and what you say had been done to the original regulator you just took out - he shaved the plastic down. I assume it is the white/cream plastic - just grind/shave it down as all it is is a mounting platform. And send me your old one so I can see what you two are talking about. I'll pay the shipping.

Where the hole for the new cable is supposed to go: Looking from the top of the car, put it 1 1/2" or so back from where the plastic heat shield clamps on the back of the alternator and a little over to the driver's side of the car. This is just so you have a nice easy curve over to the big post it attaches to on the alternator back. If you drill it in what turns out to be the wrong position, just plug the hole with a rubber/plastic plug from the hardware store and do it over now that you understand what the deal is.

BTW, you may have to bend up the eye terminal a bit like this: _/ to get a nice fit.

Fire away with anymore questions.

PrerYDoG

Well, the regulator is in. I ground it down with a bench grinder, looked like it had never even been touched , hell of a lot better than the hack job that was done to the original grinder. I'll get that out in the mail early next week I hope. If whoever did the last one had been me, I'd not have been able to tell it was ground (yeah, I did it nice!). Anyway, so that's taken care of, I have the alternator back in place but I can't get the damn heat shields bottom screw on (damn heat shield will NOT mate back up with the back of the alternator, there's a good 1/4" gap that I can not close on it). I'll screw with that Sunday (working on selling a house, gotta fix it up tomorrow). Hopefully that won't take all day Sunday, but it did take a lot of time today. Then I'll have the alternator back on and I'm off to the next part (haven't read the directions all the way through, wonder what awaits me next!).

Thanks for the clarification on the instructions, I got my whole drilled the first time the right time. The rubber grommet was easy to get on, made a nice tight seal, no holes or leaks, no need for silicon....I like it.

Off to go shower and out to the bars, wish me luck

Mike B

[quote]Originally posted by PrerYDoG:
<strong>Off to go shower and out to the bars, wish me luck </strong><hr></blockquote>

Good Luck

jim968

Shark, the bit about the voltage regulator not fitting is _very_ interesting. Just to add to your knowledge base on this, here's what happened to me...

The shop I trade at was moving, and clearing out their parts room. My regular tech & buddy, Mark, wasn't there that day, so I asked one of the other techs about a higher voltage non-Bosch regulator that Mark had mentioned that they stocked and that I should get for the 968. He pulled it off the shelf, handed it to me, and I went into the office. Parts gal / office manager looks it up & charges $5.41 + tax (their cost, per her).

I went home happy, and tried to install it... for an hour. yes, the new regulator looked a little different, but the holes were the same size and distance apart, etc. So it should fit, right?

Could _not_ get the second screw in, and since I was working entirely by feel, couldn't tell why. Finally unbolted the alternator, and saw that I had _exactly_ what Mark is talking about here.

The bearing boss on the back of the alternator is too big to let the regulator seat. Regulator fits into hole in alternator fine; first screw goes in. But when you try to pivot the regulator in towards the center to fully compress the brush springs and line up the second screw, the edge of the circular part of the regulator hits the bearing boss before the screw holes line up.... probably missing alignment by over 1/4", from memory. What had kept me trying for an hour is that there's a second, small unthreaded hole that _almost_ lines up; I was trying to start the screw in this wrong hole, and could feel the edge of it with the screw, so I kept trying.

I returned it, got a refund, and ordered a regulator from Zim's or Paragon, being very careful to mention that it was for a '94 968. What arrived had a _rectangular_ plastic center instead of round. It was identical to the OEM part that I'd removed, and a perfect fit.

So either there's two kinds of similar alternators on these cars, or there's two kinds of back covers for the same alternator... dunno which, but that's my story, and I'm sticking to it, even if the dog did eat my homework.

The brush assembly appears to be identical, the screw hole spacing is the same, but if you've got the round-centered regulator, it will _not_ clear the bearing boss.

Maybe Mark's car has had a 968 alternator put on it at some time in the past...

If, after reading this opus (too much coffee!) you want even more info, just post back, because I may also have an answer to the reason for the larger bearing boss.

Jim, gone out to finish the year's leaf collection...

IceShark

Jim, fire away with any theories you have.

Here is what I know. I haven't sold any regulators to 968 owners that I can recall but the big starter and alternator data base I use lists the 968 alternator (and voltage regulator) as being the same exact 115 amp, Bosch Model 0-120-468-001 as the later 944s use. So, that shouldn't make any difference.

I also have an 88 951S as Mark does ...... wait what is this?

On one of my voltage regulator orders they ran out of the normal adjustable voltage regulators which does not have a resistor built in (part # IB373A) and sent me a couple regulators that had the built in resistor (part # IB372A). The tech guys told me either will work, the Bosch alternator has a built in resistor so doesn't need one added to the regulator, but you can use the regulator with resistor - the resistor is just redundant. I believed them especially since I installed the regulator with resistor (IB372A) in my '88 951S alternator without any problems.

But as I sit here looking at a IB372A and IB373A I can see the IB372A (with resistor) doesn't have a notch out in the plastic base like the IB373A has. This notch out is at the TOP of the base, though, opposite side from the brushes. (Both these have rectangular covers over the electronics, BTW, so that won't help in identifing.) So this notch wouldn't fit with your bearing boss interfearance theory.

But my old original voltage regulator had the notch like the IB373A.

Mark, which regulator did I send you and which side if the base did you have to grind? Guess I need to still see the shaved one you took out to figure out what what the heck is going on.

In any event, I'm not going to send out any more of these IB372As.

jim968

Shark, here's a (purely theoretical) explaination for the "big bearing boss" alternators:

The alternator on my '89 Jetta GLI got noisy at about 60K miles. One of my other mech buddies told me that Bosch had stopped pressing the back bearing directly into the metal housing, and had staarted using a plastic ring in a larger hole in the bearing boss, so the bearing was seated in the plastic ring. Theory was that this made the ID machining, both diameter & centering, on the back cover less critical & cheaper, since the plastic ring would take up the slack as the bearing was pressed in.

Anyhow, this led to more heat build-up in the bearing, since the plastic interfered with transfer to the metal housing. Also, in a long-snout Jetta application, the force of belt tightening applied a magnified cantilever force on both bearings; the front one mounted in metal stayed put, so the plastic ring gave, allowing some misalignment.

But anyway, at least in late-80's VW's, the bearing boss was enlarged to accomodate the addition of the plastic ring, per my buddy's possibly wild-arsed theory.

Jim, gone back to leaf collecting...

PrerYDoG

Shark - not sure if you sent me the 372A or 373A. If this is stamped on the box, I'll check it out when I'm in the garage (home from my weekend, it was good....and am getting ready to head back to the garage...it's a long 20 ft. from the house!). If it's on the regulator itself (stamped) I probably won't be able to tell you which you sent (as I'm not pulling the alternator for just that). Though, you may get lucky if I can't get the damn heat shield bolted all the way to the alternator, as I'll have to pull it anyway (or just leave the bottom of the heat shield un-bolted..I'd rather not do that but..). I had to grind the part of the plastic that was on the side of the regulator brushes.

Jim - I tried to bolt it into that second hole too, what bothered me was I didn't pay any attention to it when I took the old one out, so when I went to put the new one in I was like "Oh ****, which hole..which hole..", then I had a flash back to my woman smacking me in the face saying "the top one, the TOP ONE" and so I did, and it failed, that is until the grinder fixed things up.

IceShark

Mark, the model number is stamped on the box if you still have that.

But it doesn't matter because you had to shave the brush side of the base and both are identical on that side as are all the original Bosch regulators I have taken off.

So who knows exactly what is going on.

PrerYDoG

Ice - Checked things out to find I have the 373A (which doesn't matter now as you said, but thought that I'd point that out to you).

Woke up this morning to get started and.....NO POWER

CRAP

Power's back on now (or I wouldn't be typing this), and am getting ready to hit it hard. I'm going to take some pictures with my new Digi-Cam. I'm not very good at taking pictures with it yet, but we'll see what comes out. I'll show where i put my wires and such. I ran the pass light down through the hole below the drivers light, and zip tied it along the bottom of the cooling fans and back up along the oil cooler. Hopefully I won't have a heat issue killing the wires, ya think?

After I take the pictures I'll be re-tensioning the alternator belt (which I don't have a tensioner, it's more by "feel" and most importantly "sound"). Then I'll put the bottom end back together, put the lights all back together, put the top end together and probably "duct tape" the hose that I ripped yesterday so I can fire it up (after I run and buy some coolant) and test things out. I'll prolly order a new hose Thursday.

BTW - You had suggested I go to my local Porsche Dealer to get a new hose...For reference, I don't have a local Porsche dealer (yeah, I live out THERE). Local would be, roughly, an hour, hour 15 minutes away.


Thanks for all the help thus far

IceShark

Mark, I think I know which air hose you are talking about and duct tape will work fine to tide you over.

Your wiring route is fine (which is why I put in some extra lenght) as long as you keep it out of moving parts like belts and sharp screw points. There is no place in the engine bay that would be a heat issue unless you run it right on the headers. That fiberglass sleeve is rated at over 500F continuous and the rating is so low because above that the coloring dye (black) will gradually start to volatize away. That leaves you with the base fiberglass weave which I believe is rated over 1100F continous. Industry uses this sleeve to protect wiring inside electrical heaters, so, no problemo from your radiator or oil cooler.

PrerYDoG

Well, I'm adding pictures to this one, I may start a new thread late with complete install pictures and add these to it. Basically, I'm showing the tied up wires in the headlight area, the alternator wire, and where I ran it along the bottom of the car across the fan. Hopefully these will all come out, as this is my first picture post ever (318 posts into the Renn, I post my first pictures).













Lemme know whatcha think, I'll check in after a bit, time to go finish this beast

IceShark

Mark,

2 points that I can make out. The relays are mounted (?) upside down. Probably doesn't matter as the rubber seals should keep the water out but water will stand on the seal where the wires go into the base.

The metal mounting tangs should be upright and screwed in to the fender as close as practical under the coolant reservoir. Then the wires out of the relays point down to the little "floor" under the headlight bucket. Makes a neater looking install. And water will never make it into the relays, though I did do a test and actually sank them underwater about 2 feet for a couple days and water never made it past the seals.

The rubber cover on the back of the Cibies around the bulb. Make sure that vent hole/exit points down when the headlight is upright so water can't catch in it and somehow work its way into the lens. The vent looks to be in about in the 11 o'clock position right now, you want to turn it to the 6 o'clock position.

BTW, it is nice that you put the OEM headlight socket and thin wires in the picture so people can compare to the robust construction and quality of my kit. This is one of the primary reasons the lighting gains are so impressive.

PrerYDoG

Actually Ice - I didn't mount the relays with the provided screws. For some unknown reason there were three screws sticking out at that location that I was able to fit the relays on, so I bolted them (not screwed) to those. I'll see if I can't find something to deflect water, but it's going to be hard to get them wet, under the hood, and under the air intake that covers them, same for the headlights. I tried twisting the headlight rubber covers, don't know how successful I was, but I had already put the lights back together when i got your message, and it appears to me that anytime we ever need to change bulbs (or move those things) we have to take the whole headlight cover apart now, as things are a VERY tight fit.. On the other hand too, I don't drive this car in the rain (hell, I barely drive it, 2,500 miles in the past 14 months!).

anyway, it's ALLLLLLL back together (with a duct taped hose), I am going to run into town and get some antifreeze so I can run the car. I'll post completion pictures (the install is fairly transparent because of the air intake boot covering things up). Also, as you had mentioned, I went ahead and left the old wiring in the headlight with the new wiring. I felt that this was just a good a place as any, as I didn't need the room within the headlight, and I'd rather not have other wires "dangling" around (even if they are tied or taped up).

IceShark

Mark, you get more water under that hood and around headlights than you would imagine.

I know the unused mounting bracket with the studs on it you are talking about. Fine, leave the relays upside down, they will take quite a few PSI to ever leak past the seals.

But I want you to turn the rubber covers down on the headlights. You could have left a little more slack in the headlight harness to pull the lenses out the front, but that is OK. Just pull the 4 screws to the painted sheet metal cover and you can stick your hand in there and see what you are doing. I REALLY want those vents pointed down!

Besides, you can get some little stainless oval head sheet metal screws to replace the 4 OEM ones which are probably rusted to hell and starting to bleed. Offhand, I think those are #4s (maybe #6) by 5/8ths.