Injector Kit Mismatch (Solved, 2 ways, pics)
10-15-2008, 03:38 PM
#16
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Thread Starter
Yes. Not very dirty.
Static Flow
115.5 118 118 117 Before
118 118 118 118 After
Pulsed Flow
101.5 103.5 104 103 Before
104 104 104 104.5 After
CC/min @43.5psi
236 236 236 236
Injector Balance
2.4% Before
0.5% After
Was hoping to find a bad one, to account for misfires on #1.
Did find a very bad distributor cap, though.
And, its all completely reassembled ---and I get a no start condition a few minutes ago.
My CPS wires might be crossed (does it matter?) and are all taped-up because the plugs disintegrated. Hope its that.
Will check timing again, though, first. Got no valve-piston sound, (yet), thank goodness.
Update: Got it. Had switched the ref and speed sensors. Runs.
Static Flow
115.5 118 118 117 Before
118 118 118 118 After
Pulsed Flow
101.5 103.5 104 103 Before
104 104 104 104.5 After
CC/min @43.5psi
236 236 236 236
Injector Balance
2.4% Before
0.5% After
Was hoping to find a bad one, to account for misfires on #1.
Did find a very bad distributor cap, though.
And, its all completely reassembled ---and I get a no start condition a few minutes ago.
My CPS wires might be crossed (does it matter?) and are all taped-up because the plugs disintegrated. Hope its that.
Will check timing again, though, first. Got no valve-piston sound, (yet), thank goodness.
Update: Got it. Had switched the ref and speed sensors. Runs.
Last edited by Landseer; 10-15-2008 at 07:08 PM.
08-28-2010, 11:30 PM
#17
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FWIW, I had the same experience; my new kit looks just like yours and the ones that came off look identical as well. I just put them on there and let 'em rip, though. Mark actually reinstalled the fuel rail, so I don't know how they actually went into the car, but I worked on the injectors themselves. Car seems to be running leak-free right now.
So did it ever leak? I am traumatized from searching for the right caps locally, and if I throw the bosch kit on instead of waiting for mail order it will simplify life greatly.
08-29-2010, 12:00 AM
#18
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Thread Starter
The caps don't have anything to do with leaking, they are in the chamber.
The guy that posted on the previous page, from Rennbay, shows a kit on his site and claims they work (blue caps). I've not tried them, but do believe him, and I will order them for the next set that I do.
The guy that posted on the previous page, from Rennbay, shows a kit on his site and claims they work (blue caps). I've not tried them, but do believe him, and I will order them for the next set that I do.
08-29-2010, 12:18 AM
#19
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Oh really? Then why is everyone in this thread and several others hopping mad at bosch? What is the compatibility issue with this kit, and these caps, then? If not leaking, there must be some other problem. Or do you mean that it's the BOSCH o-rings that cause the leak, while the pintle caps are fine?
The rennbay fellow sells the blue caps by Bog Warner because "the bosch kits tend to leak" according to himself. I also believe him. I would love to order from Rennbay. But I would like more to have my car on the road, earlier than the time it takes to wait for a kit to arrive by mail.
The rennbay fellow sells the blue caps by Bog Warner because "the bosch kits tend to leak" according to himself. I also believe him. I would love to order from Rennbay. But I would like more to have my car on the road, earlier than the time it takes to wait for a kit to arrive by mail.
08-29-2010, 09:14 AM
#20
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Thread Starter
The caps don't fit. They are too tall and, as such, can interfere with the spray pattern, just like having the wrong nozzle on a spray gun. They also don't click onto the injector correctly. Don't fit.
I don't want to use my engines to grind them up and spit them out when they fall off the injectors into the valves.
The O-rings ended-up being ok to use. The questions about diameter and material that I raised did not end-up being valid. Lubed well, they sunk into the fuel rails and manifolds with a reasonable fit. Only one leaked, due to me nicking it on installation. Fortunately I had spare kits. I've used them on 16 additional injectors now on 2 928's since this thread was written and the questions were raised. (for my 32v cars, the same injectors as 944). But I was very careful to not break the caps when adding/removing O-rings.
But the pintle caps are just plain wrong. The aftermarket support in sorting out the reasoning why on 25 year old cars, with with Porsche and with Bosch, just isn't there. Especially on a $4 part. Roger Tyson tried it with both with no success.
Looks like Rennbay has the answer. Shift to a BorgWarner set, or whatever those blue ones are part of. Witchhunter clearly has it figured-out, too, with nice short yellow ones that fit. Where they get them, who knows?
In a post above, somebody mentioned getting them locally ---- well, the parts stores around here are clueless. Maybe the local option is feasible if you knew another car that used that particular compatible BorgWarner kit and asked for it that way. Even BapGeon was clueless.
Regarding your last comment, impatience in dealing with the refurb of these cars will drive you crazy. If you want to reassemble with the wrong parts, have at it. Better solution would be to pay for overnight shipping, install the right parts (assuming Rennbay offers the right parts) and then you can feel confident about the installation. What's your hurry?
BTW, have you replaced your fuel lines? Ours on the 944 were cracked and we've seen too many 928's and 944's and 951's that have cooked themselves to embers. In two recent cases, the occupants barely escaped. Don't rush, stay safe. I mention this because if you are into the injectors, you are by default also into the fuel lines. Manipulation of them has been reported to push them over the precipice into failure mode.
I don't want to use my engines to grind them up and spit them out when they fall off the injectors into the valves.
The O-rings ended-up being ok to use. The questions about diameter and material that I raised did not end-up being valid. Lubed well, they sunk into the fuel rails and manifolds with a reasonable fit. Only one leaked, due to me nicking it on installation. Fortunately I had spare kits. I've used them on 16 additional injectors now on 2 928's since this thread was written and the questions were raised. (for my 32v cars, the same injectors as 944). But I was very careful to not break the caps when adding/removing O-rings.
But the pintle caps are just plain wrong. The aftermarket support in sorting out the reasoning why on 25 year old cars, with with Porsche and with Bosch, just isn't there. Especially on a $4 part. Roger Tyson tried it with both with no success.
Looks like Rennbay has the answer. Shift to a BorgWarner set, or whatever those blue ones are part of. Witchhunter clearly has it figured-out, too, with nice short yellow ones that fit. Where they get them, who knows?
In a post above, somebody mentioned getting them locally ---- well, the parts stores around here are clueless. Maybe the local option is feasible if you knew another car that used that particular compatible BorgWarner kit and asked for it that way. Even BapGeon was clueless.
Regarding your last comment, impatience in dealing with the refurb of these cars will drive you crazy. If you want to reassemble with the wrong parts, have at it. Better solution would be to pay for overnight shipping, install the right parts (assuming Rennbay offers the right parts) and then you can feel confident about the installation. What's your hurry?
BTW, have you replaced your fuel lines? Ours on the 944 were cracked and we've seen too many 928's and 944's and 951's that have cooked themselves to embers. In two recent cases, the occupants barely escaped. Don't rush, stay safe. I mention this because if you are into the injectors, you are by default also into the fuel lines. Manipulation of them has been reported to push them over the precipice into failure mode.
Last edited by Landseer; 08-29-2010 at 09:40 AM.
08-29-2010, 11:07 PM
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The caps don't fit. They are too tall and, as such, can interfere with the spray pattern, just like having the wrong nozzle on a spray gun. They also don't click onto the injector correctly. Don't fit.
I don't want to use my engines to grind them up and spit them out when they fall off the injectors into the valves.
The O-rings ended-up being ok to use. The questions about diameter and material that I raised did not end-up being valid. Lubed well, they sunk into the fuel rails and manifolds with a reasonable fit. Only one leaked, due to me nicking it on installation. Fortunately I had spare kits. I've used them on 16 additional injectors now on 2 928's since this thread was written and the questions were raised. (for my 32v cars, the same injectors as 944). But I was very careful to not break the caps when adding/removing O-rings.
But the pintle caps are just plain wrong. The aftermarket support in sorting out the reasoning why on 25 year old cars, with with Porsche and with Bosch, just isn't there. Especially on a $4 part. Roger Tyson tried it with both with no success.
Looks like Rennbay has the answer. Shift to a BorgWarner set, or whatever those blue ones are part of. Witchhunter clearly has it figured-out, too, with nice short yellow ones that fit. Where they get them, who knows?
In a post above, somebody mentioned getting them locally ---- well, the parts stores around here are clueless. Maybe the local option is feasible if you knew another car that used that particular compatible BorgWarner kit and asked for it that way. Even BapGeon was clueless.
Regarding your last comment, impatience in dealing with the refurb of these cars will drive you crazy. If you want to reassemble with the wrong parts, have at it. Better solution would be to pay for overnight shipping, install the right parts (assuming Rennbay offers the right parts) and then you can feel confident about the installation. What's your hurry?
BTW, have you replaced your fuel lines? Ours on the 944 were cracked and we've seen too many 928's and 944's and 951's that have cooked themselves to embers. In two recent cases, the occupants barely escaped. Don't rush, stay safe. I mention this because if you are into the injectors, you are by default also into the fuel lines. Manipulation of them has been reported to push them over the precipice into failure mode.
I don't want to use my engines to grind them up and spit them out when they fall off the injectors into the valves.
The O-rings ended-up being ok to use. The questions about diameter and material that I raised did not end-up being valid. Lubed well, they sunk into the fuel rails and manifolds with a reasonable fit. Only one leaked, due to me nicking it on installation. Fortunately I had spare kits. I've used them on 16 additional injectors now on 2 928's since this thread was written and the questions were raised. (for my 32v cars, the same injectors as 944). But I was very careful to not break the caps when adding/removing O-rings.
But the pintle caps are just plain wrong. The aftermarket support in sorting out the reasoning why on 25 year old cars, with with Porsche and with Bosch, just isn't there. Especially on a $4 part. Roger Tyson tried it with both with no success.
Looks like Rennbay has the answer. Shift to a BorgWarner set, or whatever those blue ones are part of. Witchhunter clearly has it figured-out, too, with nice short yellow ones that fit. Where they get them, who knows?
In a post above, somebody mentioned getting them locally ---- well, the parts stores around here are clueless. Maybe the local option is feasible if you knew another car that used that particular compatible BorgWarner kit and asked for it that way. Even BapGeon was clueless.
Regarding your last comment, impatience in dealing with the refurb of these cars will drive you crazy. If you want to reassemble with the wrong parts, have at it. Better solution would be to pay for overnight shipping, install the right parts (assuming Rennbay offers the right parts) and then you can feel confident about the installation. What's your hurry?
BTW, have you replaced your fuel lines? Ours on the 944 were cracked and we've seen too many 928's and 944's and 951's that have cooked themselves to embers. In two recent cases, the occupants barely escaped. Don't rush, stay safe. I mention this because if you are into the injectors, you are by default also into the fuel lines. Manipulation of them has been reported to push them over the precipice into failure mode.
Thank you for taking the time to write such a detailed answer. Trying to find locally, all I found was a headache. Napa and three local stores had the Beck Arnley kit and another generic kit, but the amazing thing was, contrary to what has been said here, that the blue caps in all the kits were identical in dimensions to the Bosch yellow caps!!!! That had me questioning my sanity, and is what caused me to even consider putting in the Bosch parts. Why are all the manufacturers' caps except Borg Warner's wrong?
I guess it's worth mentioning here that I had the injectors cleaned and tested locally since witchhunter does no international shipping. The sad irony is that the local shop could have put the parts on for around $30 extra but having already bought the Bosch kit without yet looking at it, I firmly believed I had the correct seal kit at home and told them not to. Still, I cannot be sure they would have been the correct caps either.
I deliberated long over the pintle caps, and arrived at the same conclusion as you: that they will interfere with the spray pattern. I then finally decided to let the car stay down for another week or so - the inconvenience is minor, but it exists - while I wait for the order. I saw that another lister had found a set from Mr. Injector that looks exactly like the set put on injectors serviced by witchhunter. The guy advertises it as servicing the "bosch type 1 injectors with pintle" and the picture was of a tan-colored injector much like the 928s. Since a lister had bought the pack and been satisfied, and since I am sure they are the same caps that Witchhunter uses, upon seeing the option to ship to Canada I ordered the kit. I haven't investigated whether Rennbay ships to Canada yet, but getting stuff cross-border is usually a major headache. Most online parts suppliers in the states won't do it, and those that do cost a bomb in duties and UPS $40 "border processing fees" that make it rarely worth ordering small parts.
I also found another website, directed at fuel injector service professionals, that had a variety of Bosch pintle caps as part of a larger "hard to find parts" combo package. It seems the pros have their aftermarket sources... I suspect Bosch and Porsche of playing games to get people to spring for new injectors (at $270 each locally I might as well buy another car).
As for the O-rings: I worried a lot when you said they were not Viton, but googling I learned that viton for automotive applications is often coded black, so they may well be upgraded. Thanks for sharing your experience with those, I now have 12 spares from my Bosch kits.
The fuel lines.... yes, I suspected as much. I guess I had been in denial about the necessity of replacing those. I wonder, where do you recommend for sourcing those, that also ships to Canada? The Canada-based online parts dealers don't stock them. How much am I going to be looking at, if you would happen to know?
EDIT: looks like Rennbay is the answer, with international shipping. I will cry for a while over not ordering the injector seal kits from them and bundle the shipping with the fuel lines, but I guess it has to be done.
Last edited by Brewer944; 08-29-2010 at 11:22 PM.
09-09-2010, 05:13 PM
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Mr. Injector has the correct caps
So, Mr. Injector (just google for his website) has the correct kits. Pintle caps are exactly the same size and shape as the originals, except the color is pale yellow like the ones pictured earlier in the thread. Washers and o-rings are identical. The fit is perfect, no leaks at all, and my car has never run this well. Top points for him and for the guys at NW fuel injection, Surrey, BC. who cleaned the injectors.
The injector seal kit costs $20, and comes with brown viton o-rings, 100% correct pintle caps, washers, AND the filter screens that go in the tops of the injectors. Detailed instructions on removing and replacing all the parts are also included. Oh, and you get five of each in case of accidents or ham-fistery. I haven't found another place where a person cleaning his/her own injectors can get those replacement filter screens, though I wasn't exactly looking for them since NW replaced mine.
Now I am just waiting on my Rennbay fuel line kit to arrive.... won't drive the car any more until those are replaced. Too much invested to risk it becoming a Rotisserie Porsche. Thanks for the reminder to do that, Landseer. The line kit looks like a quality product - I like the ease of hose clamps - and I may be the odd one out on the forum in actually loving the pale blue color. I can't wait for them to get here.
Oh , and one install tip I feel may be helpful, since I did not see it when searching: at first the injectors sat too deep in the fuel rail to get the clips on! I thought they were too shallow, and that the clips clipped further down the shaft of the injector, instead of in the recess .But having screwed the rail down, I decided to cautiously start the car without them. after idling for around five minutes, the injectors moved themselves down about a sixteenth of an inch which revealed the recesses for the clips. Then the clips seated perfectly.
The injector seal kit costs $20, and comes with brown viton o-rings, 100% correct pintle caps, washers, AND the filter screens that go in the tops of the injectors. Detailed instructions on removing and replacing all the parts are also included. Oh, and you get five of each in case of accidents or ham-fistery. I haven't found another place where a person cleaning his/her own injectors can get those replacement filter screens, though I wasn't exactly looking for them since NW replaced mine.
Now I am just waiting on my Rennbay fuel line kit to arrive.... won't drive the car any more until those are replaced. Too much invested to risk it becoming a Rotisserie Porsche. Thanks for the reminder to do that, Landseer. The line kit looks like a quality product - I like the ease of hose clamps - and I may be the odd one out on the forum in actually loving the pale blue color. I can't wait for them to get here.
Oh , and one install tip I feel may be helpful, since I did not see it when searching: at first the injectors sat too deep in the fuel rail to get the clips on! I thought they were too shallow, and that the clips clipped further down the shaft of the injector, instead of in the recess .But having screwed the rail down, I decided to cautiously start the car without them. after idling for around five minutes, the injectors moved themselves down about a sixteenth of an inch which revealed the recesses for the clips. Then the clips seated perfectly.
