Tom R.

Before I get into a biddng war with a fellow poster on something i may not even want, here goes.

Ebay has [quote]a set of front Koni adjustable struts and Weltmeister (Eibach) 250lb springs off an 1986 944 turbo with less than 20k miles on them <hr></blockquote>

Did the car come from the factory with the 259lb springs or are 250lb springs considered higher performance or a coil over? Also are these the same ones the Paragon's koni rebuild kit would fit.

Also, would they fit my 89S2 since the S2 uses the 86 951 suspension.

Lastly what are they worth and am I better off rebuilding the ones in my car for less $$$.

BTW what does my car have? I dont have the LSD?

TIA

Riff

Tom-

Stock springs on the '86 951 and the S2 is something more like 140lbs. The ones on that set are aftermarket.

I don't think the struts would fit your car, but I could be wrong. After '86 there was a change to the steering knuckle of the cars. The ones on our S2's have a thicker mounting plate than the '86. I know this because I almost sold a friend with an '86 951 my set of Koni M474 struts. Went to put them on and found that the mounting bracket was thinner on his car.

HTH,

Tom R.

Thanks

Skip

[quote]Originally posted by Tom R.:
<strong>Did the car come from the factory with the 259lb springs or are 250lb springs considered higher performance or a coil over?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Your car came with ~140# [edited - because Tom's correct] spring rate as standard. The 250# is a performance upgrade, and very standard for the model.

[quote]<strong>Also are these the same ones the Paragon's koni rebuild kit would fit.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Yes, any originally sealed strut (86 951, 87+ all others) will accept the 8641-1414S bolt-in strut cartridge. However, you didn't link to these, so I'm not sure exactly what you're bidding on. They could be the later M030 Koni's that have adjustable ride-height and rebound adjustment as standard.

[quote]<strong>Also, would they fit my 89S2 since the S2 uses the 86 951 suspension.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Yes, but your car does_not use the 86T suspension per sé. The struts and springs are different, and for this reason you would need the whole assembly (strut, spring, upper hat). The best way to describe the interchangability of this strut is to remove the four nuts holding the top strut mount on, then remove the two bolts at the bottom... then you have what you need.

[quote]<strong>Lastly what are they worth and am I better off rebuilding the ones in my car for less $$$.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Depending on where you get them, the new Koni 1414S (insert) is ~$150 each, Special progressive springs (from H&R, 195#-230#) for your car (S2 or 968) are ~$195. Instead of the progressive springs, you could add the ride-height adjustable coil-over kit with choice of springs from 200-100# and appropriate top hat for ~$240. So, that's from $495-540 to get Konis and sportier springs.

[quote]<strong>BTW what does my car have? I dont have the LSD?</strong><hr></blockquote>

LSD and sport suspension do_not always go hand-in-hand... though it does make sense. Have a look at the option code sticker in the trunk area behind the carpet next to the left tail light. The codes there will let you know if the car came with anything special from the factory. You can decode the options <a href="http://www.kindel.com/Porsche/options.asp" target="_blank">HERE</a>. These cars are old enough now that there's no telling what they've endured... so it may be best to have a look to see what you have. If the top of the strut case looks to have a crimped on cap, then you have the standard non-sport struts.

Good Luck!

Tom Pultz

[quote]Originally posted by Tom R.:
Also, would they fit my 89S2 since the S2 uses the 86 951 suspension.<hr></blockquote>Not true. The S2 suspension is totally different. The S2 uses a unique shock and spring compared to the 951 and the spring rate is only about 140#/inch. The stock struts are very softly damped.
[quote]am I better off rebuilding the ones in my car for less $$$.<hr></blockquote>You would be better off buying the new Koni inserts from Paragon and installing them in your S2 struts. You could also add the coilover kit or the H&R 968 springs, which are about the only ones that will fit the stock S2 strut and upper spring perch.
[quote]I dont have the LSD?<hr></blockquote>Not many did

Tom R.

here is the link to auction

<a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1824409912&r=0&t=0&showTutorial=0&ed=1019976 707&indexURL=0&rd=1" target="_blank">ebay shocks for 951</a>

If these fit, how much new skip? Also confirm the inserts will fit in these.

Tom, my car was only maintained by the dealer and had 56k on it when i bought it in '00. it is bone stock.

Am I taking a lot of steps here to go noplace by considering these shocks?

Danno

So basically from what Skip & TomP are saying, am I to assume that if you want to swap struts between the 951 & S2, you pretty much have to take the ENTIRE strut? That is the lower shock part, the springs AND the top perch in order for all the pieces to fit?

Anyway, I've always been leary of bying used shocks & struts. Especially the adjustable ones because people tend to have them set too tight and wear is accelerated. Better to just buy the new hacksaw Konis from Paragon. They'll be new instead of used.

Skip

Aha! Those are the discontinued 8741-1136S, and sold for ~$250/ea new. The springs new were ~$150/set. The entire contents of the picture will fit your car (ask the seller if the upper strut mounts are included - as indicated in the picture)

Koni discontinued that strut in favor of the more affordable insert (cut-n-drill method - 8641-1414S = ~$150/ea)

I can see these going for $300-350... but as mentioned earlier - you can duplicate this process with new parts for ~$500.

Good Luck!

Skip

[quote]Originally posted by Danno:
<strong>So basically from what Skip & TomP are saying, am I to assume that if you want to swap struts between the 951 & S2, you pretty much have to take the ENTIRE strut? That is the lower shock part, the springs AND the top perch in order for all the pieces to fit?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Yes, but only the top spring perch (top hat) - not the whole strut mount... it'd sure be nice to have an extra set laying around that might be in better shape than yours though.

Does this mean there's gonna be an Ebay showdown between Rennlisters. Folks, stand back... this could get ugly

Good luck to both of you, and may the best man win (keeping in mind most of us have seen Dan in drag )

Skip

Tom R.

thanks much skip. say hello to chuck for me when you speak to him next.

I will watch these for a while, and maybe put a bid in. i don't need the parts now or for a while (67k on car). if someone else on the board wants/needs them warn me so we don't compete on something i don't need yet.

Also skip, will the koni inserts fit all S2's regardless of what is in the car (from the factory)?

Skip

[quote]Originally posted by Danno:
<strong>Better to just buy the new hacksaw Konis from Paragon.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Aargh... there's that "hacksaw" term again... I thought we came up with a more friendly term

Personally, I use a 10" metal cutoff blade in my compound mitre [click to enlarge]:

<a href="http://www.tech-session.com/Paragon/Tech/Tech_images/1414S_007.jpg" target="_blank"></a>

[shameless plug] I guess this might be good time to mention we are offering the "hacksaw" Koni 1414S conversion done for you at a cost of $100 per set. This includes proper installation, and painting (standard Black, or Koni Yellow, ...custom colors on request for additional $5) This is done on an exchange basis, but we do have completed units now ready to ship. Here's the end result [click to enlarge]:

<a href="http://www.tech-session.com/Paragon/Tech/Tech_images/1414S_015.jpg" target="_blank"></a>

Skip

Tom R.

For anyone else interested. this is from this link
<a href="http://www.davidsims.ukgateway.net/944t/koni.htm" target="_blank">http://www.davidsims.ukgateway.net/944t/koni.htm</a>
Ok Folks, here's the story on Koni's and your 944.

83-85

These units have been available in both standard red and sport yellow applications. Recently, Koni discontinued the red rear shock (26-1209). We still have some, but after these are gone we won't be able to get any more. Almost all of these cars have rebuildable struts, so the front just gets an insert (8641-1038 or 8641-1038 Sport) which is externally adjustable for rebound. The rears are standard adjustable (26-1209 or 26-1209 Sport) , you have to remove them to adjust.

85.5 on NA
These cars use a different rear unit which is standard adjustable and are available in both standard red or sport yellow (8040-1035 or 8040-1035 Sport). The fronts struts on these cars can be either rebuildable or non-rebuildable. If they are rebuildable you will use the 8641-1038 Red or Sport insert. If they are non rebuildable, you will use the 8741-1136 L&R Sport strut. These are externally adjustable for rebound and have a fixed lower perch. These units can be converted to double adjustable (rebound and compression). Our experience has been that all 944 Turbo's (non S) and all the 944S models have non rebuildable front struts.

Turbo S
These cars have a Koni single adjustable (rebound), ride height adjustable front strut from the factory. This unit is still available from Porsche or you can purchase the 8742-1007 L&R Sport struts that Koni is building for the aftermarket. These units are now double adjustable (rebound and compression) as well as having the ride height adjustment. They can be fitted to other 944 models, but remember, Koni is assuming you are installing them on a car that already has this setup so you don't get the lower spring perch or jam nut. You can source these parts through Porsche or try to come up with a lesser expensive option in the aftermarket. The Turbo S cars ran a conical front spring. They are smaller diameter on the bottom than on the top. Your standard 944 or 944 Turbo springs wont work on these units without modification. The rear units for these cars will be the 8040-1035 Sport.

S2, 968, (non M030)
These cars also ran a bit of a conical shaped front spring. The front units for these cars is the 8741-1237 L&R Sport. Because they used a conical shaped front spring, the lower perch on these units is smaller than the 8741-1136 Sport. NOW, these are the units that are not available. After Koni USA's supply ran out, we bugged them enough (actually committed to buy a bunch) t0 order some more units from Holland. When Holland produces units, they don't make a few at a time, they do production run of usually 100 units. We thought that the ball was rolling on these and we were waiting for an ETA from Holland. The bad news is that Holland has come back recently and said that they will not be producing the units. We don't know why as of yet, as a full production run had been ordered. These units haven't been huge movers in the past, but obviously, as time passes, more and more of these cars will be in the need of shocks. We haven't given up yet, but as of now, they isn't any light at the end of the tunnel. Koni USA does have some left units but no rights which doesn't help much. I'll try to keep you posted on what happens.

In the mean time S2 and 968 owners can either use the 8741-1136 Sport units with the different spring, or go to the 8742-1007 Sport units with the necessary springs, perches and jam nuts.

- Koni 1414S cut-n-drill strut inserts - single adjustable for rebound, standard valving handles spring rates to ~400# (custom valved applications can be done to order). Ride height adjust can be added to these, and would use the 2.5" ID spings available from 100-1000# in various free lengths.

- Koni 1007S strut complete (M030 type) - custom valved by Koni and made double-adjustable for bump and rebound, handles spring rates to ~650# (again, custom valved applications can be done to order). Availability varies, and price depends on if you have useable cores to trade. You must use shims and slightly modify the 86 steering knuckle to use these. (For race cars, it's generally considered best to switch to the larger 87+ spindles to prevent failure)

- Koni 2817 - Big dog racing shocks... ask for more info if you're interested in these. These are the same units in use by IRL, CART, ALMS GT/GTS, HRC, British Touring, German Touring, etc.

All konis are adjustable. Rear shocks to match each front set are available. The 1414S is the new insert for sealed struts. Installation is rated fairly simple (2-3 Beers on my own effort scale). No other parts or modifications are needed.


Paragon Products 800-200-9366

Tom Pultz

[quote]Originally posted by Danno:
am I to assume that if you want to swap struts between the 951 & S2, you pretty much have to take the ENTIRE strut? That is the lower shock part, the springs AND the top perch in order for all the pieces to fit?<hr></blockquote>The S2 does not use "inserts" per se, so the strut is just one assembly, and yes the top spring perch is different than the standard turbo or turbo S, so you need the whole assembly.

If the struts on eBay are the 8741-1136 Konis for the standard turbo they would be a good shock/spring setup, but I wouldn't pay anywhere close to $500 for them because you can buy the M030 type with adjustable height spring perches for that amount... but like Danno says, they may need to be rebuilt. I'd go with the "saw and install" inserts in the stock S2 struts for $300, and add some springs if you like.

Tom R.

Seems like anything over $150 for the ebay parts is too much.

If I spend $400 at paragon for bolt on "hackers" and another $200 for springs and perches I have a total of $600 into what is on ebay and it is new. if the ebays need rebuilding thats 300 in parts, 150 in used springs total $450, - a savings/price for the ebay parts of 150 plus im out my time "hacking".

Am I on target on this or is there some premium to attach to the fact the ebays are "adjustable"?

I think i just gave myself a migrane, TGIF @ 5:00. Pick this up tonite at home.

Again TIA

Danno

"Aargh... there's that "hacksaw" term again... I thought we came up with a more friendly term"

How about .... sawzall? Will make even quicker cuts! It slices, it dices, and if your order now! We'll even throw in a FREE set of Ginsu knives!!!