NA E85 conversion?
07-18-2008, 12:44 PM
#16
Three Wheelin'
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Ethanol is caustic so it can't be piped across the US b/c the pipelines will fail so it has to be trucked or sent via rail to it's destination and put in specially designed tanks meaning gas stations have to upgrade storage tanks. E85 is joke that won't go away and a lot of ignorant greenies are pushing it b/c of the concept not the practicality. Plus the Detroit 3 never cared about E85 as an "alternate fuel" but only b/c CAFE gives them credits for selling E85 equipped SUVs (they get a 25mpg rating versus a 14mpg rating if gas only...when in reality with gas they get 14 mpg but with E85 they get 10mpg!).
07-18-2008, 01:32 PM
#17
Race Car
Keep on believing everything you read.
Myself will be reaping the benefits both NA and turbo. All it takes is a little tuning to get decent mileage out of it. Being around Ethanol (and Methanol) before the notion of E85 I can say the corrosive nature of E85 (ethanol) is WAY overrated.
Example: My last tank on E85 in my turbo car was 405 miles and it got avg of 23 mpg with at least high boost runs of 10 second each.
If I ever take it easy through the whole tank it will see easily over 25 mpg.
Before I supercharged my NA I was getting very close to the same mileage as std fuel -15% at most. At that point I really didn't try to tune it in perfect.
You can actually run a much higher AF ratio when on part cruise I have been able to run over 17:1. If you can add some timing it gets even better.
I am not going to comment on the subsidies b/c I believe it is just another way for people to complain about our sagging economy and blaming E85 is a joke in comparison to the oil companies record profits and the toll that is taking in distribution. I am personally hit with a fuel surcharge (from $2-6) on every invoice that comes through my company so I can't go along with that mindset.
Please don't confuse the AF ratios and stioch conversions. everything I post is set using std petro conversions. So when I say I tune for 11.0 at full boost I mean the same as the guys tuning for 11.8 on std fuel. and same for 14:1-17:1 cruise, idle and so on.
There are a few other people I have helped to convert over who don't feel the need to come out and argue these points, but they are still happy to this day with the decision regardless.
Should the lines be changed? :Yes but they should be anyway
can you get decent mileage? yes
how long Have I ran Ethanol on my cars? On and off for over 15 years
I love how everyone is so quick to judge without any proof whatsoever other than what is released over the net. You ever think big OIL may have something to do with the negative Publicity??
I have even had my fuel pump checked out by a manufacture when the were offering free trade ups and there was not any damage at all from over 2 years of use.
Keep on spreading the BS and part truths , I AM running it and have been for a long time without trouble and will continue to do so for along time until a better option comes along for internal combustion engines.
List of engines I have personally ran it in
97 Chevy PU 2yrs DD
76 Blown Chevy LUV 3 yrs 8 second truck
66 injected Nova 7 yrs 8 second car
41 ****** Pro MOD 3 yrs low 6 second car
92 Mazda MPV DD
97 Pontiac Gand Prix DD
88 Saab DD
94 Saab DD
86 NA Porsche DD
86 Turbo Porsche DD
83 SC Porsche DD
I almost deleted this post but I will leave it just because it gets tiring reading what a bad fuel it is.
Enjoy what ever you are doing but make sure you understand there is another side to everything.
Myself will be reaping the benefits both NA and turbo. All it takes is a little tuning to get decent mileage out of it. Being around Ethanol (and Methanol) before the notion of E85 I can say the corrosive nature of E85 (ethanol) is WAY overrated.
Example: My last tank on E85 in my turbo car was 405 miles and it got avg of 23 mpg with at least high boost runs of 10 second each.
If I ever take it easy through the whole tank it will see easily over 25 mpg.
Before I supercharged my NA I was getting very close to the same mileage as std fuel -15% at most. At that point I really didn't try to tune it in perfect.
You can actually run a much higher AF ratio when on part cruise I have been able to run over 17:1. If you can add some timing it gets even better.
I am not going to comment on the subsidies b/c I believe it is just another way for people to complain about our sagging economy and blaming E85 is a joke in comparison to the oil companies record profits and the toll that is taking in distribution. I am personally hit with a fuel surcharge (from $2-6) on every invoice that comes through my company so I can't go along with that mindset.
Please don't confuse the AF ratios and stioch conversions. everything I post is set using std petro conversions. So when I say I tune for 11.0 at full boost I mean the same as the guys tuning for 11.8 on std fuel. and same for 14:1-17:1 cruise, idle and so on.
There are a few other people I have helped to convert over who don't feel the need to come out and argue these points, but they are still happy to this day with the decision regardless.
Should the lines be changed? :Yes but they should be anyway
can you get decent mileage? yes
how long Have I ran Ethanol on my cars? On and off for over 15 years
I love how everyone is so quick to judge without any proof whatsoever other than what is released over the net. You ever think big OIL may have something to do with the negative Publicity??
I have even had my fuel pump checked out by a manufacture when the were offering free trade ups and there was not any damage at all from over 2 years of use.
Keep on spreading the BS and part truths , I AM running it and have been for a long time without trouble and will continue to do so for along time until a better option comes along for internal combustion engines.
List of engines I have personally ran it in
97 Chevy PU 2yrs DD
76 Blown Chevy LUV 3 yrs 8 second truck
66 injected Nova 7 yrs 8 second car
41 ****** Pro MOD 3 yrs low 6 second car
92 Mazda MPV DD
97 Pontiac Gand Prix DD
88 Saab DD
94 Saab DD
86 NA Porsche DD
86 Turbo Porsche DD
83 SC Porsche DD
I almost deleted this post but I will leave it just because it gets tiring reading what a bad fuel it is.
Enjoy what ever you are doing but make sure you understand there is another side to everything.
07-18-2008, 01:39 PM
#19
Race Car
I made them you can get everything you need through JEGS.com
Also that post wasn't directed ant anyone in particular even though it looks like it (Timing).
I don't feel like arguing about it either so don't bother.
Also that post wasn't directed ant anyone in particular even though it looks like it (Timing).
I don't feel like arguing about it either so don't bother.
07-18-2008, 01:46 PM
#20
Rennlist Member
What did you have to do with your '86 NA other than change over the fuel lines? What kind of tuning?
If it works well, with little effects on the fuel pump, etc., then it's a simple matter of figuring the cost of the conversion plus the cost difference of e85 and gas, and the fuel economy difference.
I love how everyone is so quick to judge without any proof whatsoever other than what is released over the net. You ever think big OIL may have something to do with the negative Publicity??
edit: I'll have to go check the owner's manuals this weekend to see what they say...it's been a while since I looked at them and decided it wasn't worth it (gas was around $2/gal then, price has gone up a touch since). Also have to check and see if it said anything about e85 in low temps... something to think about in MI
07-18-2008, 01:51 PM
#21
Instructor
Join Date: Aug 2005
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Let's see, I'm ashamed this is so political, but my complaint against ethanol has nothing to do with the economy. However, since you bring it up, let's review the facts.
Ethanol uses 28% more energy to produce then gasoline for the same quantity. It's either using fossil energy or bio to produce.
Even if you turned every acre of farmland into ethanol producing crops, you would only get 10% of our nation's needs covered for fuel.
Our nations economy has been impacted by rising energy costs based on speculation and the falling dollar. This country's successful economy was built on low energy costs, therefore all costs go up when energy costs go up.
Blame the oil companies for high costs? No, you can't be serious. You run a company, I run a company and the shareholders of oil companies run a business. Would you be willing to be 'nice' and give money/profits back to your customers because you made too much? Surely you wouldn't or prepare to be out of business soon. Our prices are dictated by costs and competitive activity.
The problem is there are too few oil companies controlling the competitiveness of the business. I think there is only 9 or 10 companies worldwide. The rest are 'state' run. Who do we blame for that? Who approved the mergers/buyouts? Our fine government, that's who.
Sure the economy isn't rosey, but it's not tanked by any means. Blame game? Blame you, me and everyone else who voted for our fine government, from the President to your Congress. They are the idiots who got us in this crappy situation. Watch them scramble to get us out. Now there's a joke in there somewhere.
Ethanol uses 28% more energy to produce then gasoline for the same quantity. It's either using fossil energy or bio to produce.
Even if you turned every acre of farmland into ethanol producing crops, you would only get 10% of our nation's needs covered for fuel.
Our nations economy has been impacted by rising energy costs based on speculation and the falling dollar. This country's successful economy was built on low energy costs, therefore all costs go up when energy costs go up.
Blame the oil companies for high costs? No, you can't be serious. You run a company, I run a company and the shareholders of oil companies run a business. Would you be willing to be 'nice' and give money/profits back to your customers because you made too much? Surely you wouldn't or prepare to be out of business soon. Our prices are dictated by costs and competitive activity.
The problem is there are too few oil companies controlling the competitiveness of the business. I think there is only 9 or 10 companies worldwide. The rest are 'state' run. Who do we blame for that? Who approved the mergers/buyouts? Our fine government, that's who.
Sure the economy isn't rosey, but it's not tanked by any means. Blame game? Blame you, me and everyone else who voted for our fine government, from the President to your Congress. They are the idiots who got us in this crappy situation. Watch them scramble to get us out. Now there's a joke in there somewhere.
07-18-2008, 02:02 PM
#22
Race Car
Not in the case of the owner's manuals of my flex-fuel cars. They had increased maintenance; however, I have no idea how much research they did or if they were just repeating other information.
edit: I'll have to go check the owner's manuals this weekend to see what they say...it's been a while since I looked at them and decided it wasn't worth it (gas was around $2/gal then, price has gone up a touch since). Also have to check and see if it said anything about e85 in low temps... something to think about in MI
Since my background was pressure and oriface at that time I was just using fuel pressure. Pretty much I just upped the FP either by smashing the FPR or an adjustable one I have used both with equal results it's just harder to get it right "smashing"
Also I did neglect to mention that in cold weather it is a bit harder to start and requires more initial enrichment but once warmed it's fine. I am in Colo so I know a bit about some cold weather. However I wouldn't necessarily recommend it for those who are constantantly sub 40F. I use a little std fuel in the winter I put 3 gallons std then fill with E85
I would be very interested to see what they are calling for for addition maintenance or if in fact they are just being overly cautious.
I have torn down quite a few engines that were run on Ethanol and the bearings always looked better than Methanol and race gas.
07-18-2008, 02:15 PM
#23
Race Car
Let's see, I'm ashamed this is so political, but my complaint against ethanol has nothing to do with the economy. However, since you bring it up, let's review the facts.
Ethanol uses 28% more energy to produce then gasoline for the same quantity. It's either using fossil energy or bio to produce.
Even if you turned every acre of farmland into ethanol producing crops, you would only get 10% of our nation's needs covered for fuel.
Our nations economy has been impacted by rising energy costs based on speculation and the falling dollar. This country's successful economy was built on low energy costs, therefore all costs go up when energy costs go up.
Blame the oil companies for high costs? No, you can't be serious. You run a company, I run a company and the shareholders of oil companies run a business. Would you be willing to be 'nice' and give money/profits back to your customers because you made too much? Surely you wouldn't or prepare to be out of business soon. Our prices are dictated by costs and competitive activity.
The problem is there are too few oil companies controlling the competitiveness of the business. I think there is only 9 or 10 companies worldwide. The rest are 'state' run. Who do we blame for that? Who approved the mergers/buyouts? Our fine government, that's who.
Sure the economy isn't rosey, but it's not tanked by any means. Blame game? Blame you, me and everyone else who voted for our fine government, from the President to your Congress. They are the idiots who got us in this crappy situation. Watch them scramble to get us out. Now there's a joke in there somewhere.
Ethanol uses 28% more energy to produce then gasoline for the same quantity. It's either using fossil energy or bio to produce.
Even if you turned every acre of farmland into ethanol producing crops, you would only get 10% of our nation's needs covered for fuel.
Our nations economy has been impacted by rising energy costs based on speculation and the falling dollar. This country's successful economy was built on low energy costs, therefore all costs go up when energy costs go up.
Blame the oil companies for high costs? No, you can't be serious. You run a company, I run a company and the shareholders of oil companies run a business. Would you be willing to be 'nice' and give money/profits back to your customers because you made too much? Surely you wouldn't or prepare to be out of business soon. Our prices are dictated by costs and competitive activity.
The problem is there are too few oil companies controlling the competitiveness of the business. I think there is only 9 or 10 companies worldwide. The rest are 'state' run. Who do we blame for that? Who approved the mergers/buyouts? Our fine government, that's who.
Sure the economy isn't rosey, but it's not tanked by any means. Blame game? Blame you, me and everyone else who voted for our fine government, from the President to your Congress. They are the idiots who got us in this crappy situation. Watch them scramble to get us out. Now there's a joke in there somewhere.
There really is no one entity to blame or have a beef with but a little diversification would be nice don't you think?? and if we continue down the path we are going nothing changes.... nothing changes. That's all I'm really saying , that and that I really love it for a forced induction setup.
07-18-2008, 03:26 PM
#24
it depends on what's there though. most cars produced nowadays can be just pumped in and then retuned. not talking about flexfuels, normal gasoline cars. everything midwest is already running on E10. it's only the older cars that u have to really worry about the seals. there have been tests where a modern fuel pump seal has been submerged in a beaker of e85 for a whole year and nothing has degrade.
