genikz

+1 for a 944 NA. I just ran a timed event a Willow Springs yesterday and a BSR (Boxster Spec) car was 4 seconds faster than my time. I won my class too, so my time was decent.

That being said, my car cost MUCH less, both to build and operate.

VaSteve

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LOL Ain't THAT the truth.

jaje

IMO (I haven't been racing for too long but have mostly read these, observed and talked with other racers of different classes). In other words I am no expert so please don't think of me as one - or please do and make me feel better

Higher HP cars of course have different lines...the line is the most traction out of the corner to get wheel spin to a minimum and most effective launch - this can vary from corner entry/exits such as squaring off, pinching the corner (where the momentum car's line is purely to get through all points of the corner at the highest speed. This leads me to believe that Randy was referring to treating the corners onto the straight into a drag race.

If you look at Turn 7 at Gateway International for the road course (the turn that gets you on the oval part of the track - that turn is a 1st / 2nd gear turn and the momentum cars often take a much wider turn versus the higher hp cars which tend to brake much more and turn abruptly and instead of accelerating out to the wall carrying as much speed they stay more on the inside as it's less bumpy and gives them much more traction...they leave the corner slightly slower but then have better overall acceleration and wind up getting up to speed faster. A momentum car can never be faster using that line and must use the momentum line of tracking out over the bumpy part to the wall to maximize exit speed.

Another reason is tire wear / overheating tires, etc. If you are carrying more speed through corners the tires wear much faster and can easily overheat quicker or wear out faster. A lot of American Iron racers do not want to overheat their tires so they spend the majority of the race running slower than their all out qualifying pace through corners. On a lower hp car the straights are much longer and tires and brakes have more time to cool down leaving you the ability to keep driving the corners even harder. Thought they have bigger tires, the cars are tyically much heavier and have more wheelspin than lower hp cars.

If you look at FWD cars - their lines are a little different - the tires are even more important as the fronts do most of the turning, all the braking and all the acceleration - it's very easy to get the fronts overheated and get that "greasy" feeling. It is exacerbated when you put a lot of power to pull the car.

jaje

The price in the grand scheme of things is neglible - however if you wanted to be fast in 44 Cup you had to spend some money (this includes remote resevoir shocks, brand new expensive Hoosiers for every 2-3 races, etc.). In 944 Spec - the top of the line equipment is the same for everyone $1800 kit from Paragon some ES polyurethane bushings, shaved cheaper Toyo RA1s (soon to be R888s) that can last about 5-6 races and maintain the same level of grip, etc. Neither class is better and each are popular in certain regions. Mid Atlanic and South East the 44 Cup is very popular and well run (I was in the process of building a 44 Cup car when I lived in VA - so I got to know the Mid Atlantic guys and the director very well).

I'm building a Spec car b/c the RM and Midwest regions of the 944 Spec are very close and I can race within different regions with some shorter tows. The 44 Cup is strong on the east and west coasts but has yet to gain popularity in the midwest, RM regions, or middle America (in KC where I live).

ajcjr: 44 Cup is not very expensive - it is very popular in the Mid Atlantic region - is a lot of fun and the director and racers are a wonderful group of guys. If you are going to stress yourself financially start out with a smaller car / build budget and spend the other money on driving schools and instruction. Your ability to drive what you have faster will make you a better driver overall and faster in any car. An even better idea maybe seeing if you can rent a 44 Cup car for an HPDE event or Driving School - get the feel before you spend a lot of dough.

Lemming

I really enjoy my 924S, of course it's been modified a wee bit

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xc5E1iVgY3I

J Silverman

You can put together a shock package that is not remote reservoir that will perform very well, and cost roughly the same as the spec koni package. Converting the rear to coilovers isnt much more, but its not really a performance inmprovement over the TBs so you could just get 34mm torsion bars and be done with it. It will cost about $800 for the full setup, which is $100 more than the koni yellows, but these shocks are actually meant for racing, will last 5x as long as the konis making them cheaper over the long haul.

Just in case you dont believe me, here are the parts:

2 of these, add $65 per to have them revalved, so $460 or so for the front: http://www.eshocks.com/bil_vehR.asp?...tein&SubChar=Q

2 of these (I lost the link I had saved for the rears, but I think these are them, they used to be about $100 per shock, if not the other shocks I found are $170 per) Also add $65 for revalving them so $350
http://www.daymotorsports.com/product/839/c/C111/

Grand total is $810 v. $670 for Koni yellows. In my opinion $150 in build cost is marginal.

The real money difference in cup would be spherical bearings in the suspension. They are $$$

whalebird

High HP cars should have chassis to match their output. Otherwise they could be slower than a "momentum" car. Chassis setup is key. And I would consider a boxster a "chassis"' or a momentum car as wel as a 944na. The 951 and 944na have really soft suspension and require a lot of mods to get them right. I also have seen many 951/944 cars go home on a rollback with the famous #2 rod bearing knocking. Thats where the fun ends. A boxster may need modified oiling to be competetive racing, but they hold up very well at DEs. Boxsters tend to push when stock, but can be tuned minamally with shocks and sways and be quit fast. I think an older na 944 can be a double edged sword. A boxster can be a plug and play option and very reliable too.
Also just past the "limit", the 944na can be handled. A mid-engined car tends to snap uncontrollably and spin like a top in an unpredictable direction. Driving technique will be different as you skills develop. An air cooled 911 SC makes a great car for DEs - another possibility and you will be passing boxsters and 944/951 all day.

VaSteve

Been there done that. It sucks. I had to replace the motor in my 944 because of it (easier at the time than a rebuild). I added the Lindsey kit that keeps the oil up around the pick up under hard cornering. It's a cheap solution that really seems to work for tracked 944s.

jaje

I'm going to install the flap kit from Lindsey (there's also a cheap eBay one too) and cross drill the crank (local guy just did one for his 944 Spec car) - those are the 2 solutions that seem to work best and I believe on the 944 Spec forum a lot of guys do both.

I'm also going to get the 3 piece subframe from Lindsey so I can have access much quicker than propping up the engine (I have to completely rebuild the one in my Spec car anyway).

Z-man

I get 17-18 days out of a set of RA-1's. I'm not a club racer, but I instruct with PCA and run in the instructor / upper run group at DE's. So I drive my car pretty hard, though some may disagree with that statement....

That said, if you are starting out, I would suggest that you stick with street tires. Track dedicated R-compouds have a way of hiding a driver's mistakes.

Don't confuse the low purchase cost of a 944 with it's overall cost, espeically if you factor in the track driving part. It may be cheaper to buy a 944 up front, but once you put it on the track, the maintenance and wear and tear costs can be significant. Take my case, for example. I've owned my 944S2 since 2001, and have spent a lot of money on the car. I cracked the head of the engine a few years ago -- that was $5k. I replace the rod bearings every 3-4 years. Suspension upgrades, a new clutch...etc all add up. This past weekend at Summit Point, my lower radiator hose developed a leak and started pissing out coolant. At the same time, I noticed that my front sway bar clamp was broken. While I was able to install a new hose (thanks to a mechanic who brings spares), it did sideline me for a day. So I missed track time - and while I enjoy working on my car to some extent, I'd rather not be working on it while they are calling my run group to the grid! That said, since I started this track driving stuff, I've missed maybe half a dozen days on the track, due to mechanical issues - that really isn't that bad, considering that I've got over 80 track days to date...

My point is: these cars are getting a bit long in the tooth. Push a 20-year old car is going to cost some. If you keep up with the maintenance, you will have no worries (for the most part). I keep up on maintenance, yet from time to time, there are issues like the ones I had at Summit Point. Poop happens -- but it seems that the older the car, the more age-related issues crop up -- especially if you are pushing the car to near its limits.

But on the other hand - all cars have their own weak points. Most 986's (first gen Boxsters) have rear main seal issues, for example. The good thing about the 944 chassis is that it has been around for a long time -- so most of it's weak points have already been discovered and fixes are available. The trick is to find an example in which all the fixes have been recently applied.

It is a terrific car that you can grow with as your ability increases. I would strongly suggest that you start with a good, clean, solid STOCK 944. It has plenty of suspension for you get start learning the dynamics of track driving. If you start with a cup car, or one with a modified suspension, you will actually learn slower how to drive well, IMHO. The more improved a car is, the greater the chance of the car hiding the driver's mistakes. With a bone stock car, if you blow a corner, you will most likely notice it and pay for it for a whole lap!

Sorry for the long post,
-Z-man.

VaSteve

Fixed that for you.

What do you consider "stock", WRT to suspension? Yellow Konis are certainly better than the trash that comes with these cars, but I wouldn't go back to that just to be "stoock".

J Silverman

I remember reading that a couple 944 cup guys had the 3 piece cross member fail on them. Just something to think about...

reno808

my phone number is 845 659 3629 i can give you the details when you call me.

Z-man

I should have been more detailed: I mean a fresh stock suspension. IE: fresh shocks (any shocks, as long as they are new/rebuilt/fresh), fresh bushings, and a proper alignment. That is more beneficial for the beginner track junkie than a monster aftermarket suspension.

If one starts with a totally stock suspension, AND one develops his own driving style, it is far easier (and less expensive) to update the suspension to suit his needs, and not what someone else thought was a good setup. I have seen some really funky suspension combinations that in paper don't really work - but the owner thought it would be a good idea, and felt a marked improvement in their car (while in reality, they only had a ill-handling car -- they just didn't know how to drive it.)

-Z-man.

M758

Most of us do that and alot more. Somethings are easy like always checking oil level and never letting it drop or by using a high quaility oil. Others take a bit more work like 944 Turbo oil coolers and periodic bearing replacements. Even so it is an issue that can be managed and while never completely solved motor can still last a very very long time.