how do you like your 944 for a track car
#31
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+1 for a 944 NA. I just ran a timed event a Willow Springs yesterday and a BSR (Boxster Spec) car was 4 seconds faster than my time. I won my class too, so my time was decent.
That being said, my car cost MUCH less, both to build and operate.
That being said, my car cost MUCH less, both to build and operate.
#32
Three Wheelin'
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That said, for value in terms of first cost and ongoing operating cost the 944 is excellent compared to the other P-car track car options. I would also recommend that with respect to first cost, buy a car that has alredy been track prepped. You will be buying a good many of the go fast, stay safe parts for less than $.50 on the dollar. I bought the track car for 1/2 the amount that the PO had spent on maintenance and and upgrades in the previous 24 months.
LOL Ain't THAT the truth.
#33
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This always leads me to this question. Why can't a high power car be driven like a momentum car? Why wouldn't it be driven that way? Basically, corner entry speed is dictated by the platform (not HP), and from apex on, the high HP car should be able to take advantage.
Is there a different, high HP line? I know a high HP car can run a flawed line and equal/exceed the momentum car; but that just means that HP forgives an imperfect line.
Is there a different, high HP line? I know a high HP car can run a flawed line and equal/exceed the momentum car; but that just means that HP forgives an imperfect line.
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Higher HP cars of course have different lines...the line is the most traction out of the corner to get wheel spin to a minimum and most effective launch - this can vary from corner entry/exits such as squaring off, pinching the corner (where the momentum car's line is purely to get through all points of the corner at the highest speed. This leads me to believe that Randy was referring to treating the corners onto the straight into a drag race.
If you look at Turn 7 at Gateway International for the road course (the turn that gets you on the oval part of the track - that turn is a 1st / 2nd gear turn and the momentum cars often take a much wider turn versus the higher hp cars which tend to brake much more and turn abruptly and instead of accelerating out to the wall carrying as much speed they stay more on the inside as it's less bumpy and gives them much more traction...they leave the corner slightly slower but then have better overall acceleration and wind up getting up to speed faster. A momentum car can never be faster using that line and must use the momentum line of tracking out over the bumpy part to the wall to maximize exit speed.
Another reason is tire wear / overheating tires, etc. If you are carrying more speed through corners the tires wear much faster and can easily overheat quicker or wear out faster. A lot of American Iron racers do not want to overheat their tires so they spend the majority of the race running slower than their all out qualifying pace through corners. On a lower hp car the straights are much longer and tires and brakes have more time to cool down leaving you the ability to keep driving the corners even harder. Thought they have bigger tires, the cars are tyically much heavier and have more wheelspin than lower hp cars.
If you look at FWD cars - their lines are a little different - the tires are even more important as the fronts do most of the turning, all the braking and all the acceleration - it's very easy to get the fronts overheated and get that "greasy" feeling. It is exacerbated when you put a lot of power to pull the car.
#34
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I'm building a Spec car b/c the RM and Midwest regions of the 944 Spec are very close and I can race within different regions with some shorter tows. The 44 Cup is strong on the east and west coasts but has yet to gain popularity in the midwest, RM regions, or middle America (in KC where I live).
ajcjr: 44 Cup is not very expensive - it is very popular in the Mid Atlantic region - is a lot of fun and the director and racers are a wonderful group of guys. If you are going to stress yourself financially start out with a smaller car / build budget and spend the other money on driving schools and instruction. Your ability to drive what you have faster will make you a better driver overall and faster in any car. An even better idea maybe seeing if you can rent a 44 Cup car for an HPDE event or Driving School - get the feel before you spend a lot of dough.
#36
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Just in case you dont believe me, here are the parts:
2 of these, add $65 per to have them revalved, so $460 or so for the front: http://www.eshocks.com/bil_vehR.asp?...tein&SubChar=Q
2 of these (I lost the link I had saved for the rears, but I think these are them, they used to be about $100 per shock, if not the other shocks I found are $170 per) Also add $65 for revalving them so $350
http://www.daymotorsports.com/product/839/c/C111/
Grand total is $810 v. $670 for Koni yellows. In my opinion $150 in build cost is marginal.
The real money difference in cup would be spherical bearings in the suspension. They are $$$
#37
Race Car
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High HP cars should have chassis to match their output. Otherwise they could be slower than a "momentum" car. Chassis setup is key. And I would consider a boxster a "chassis"' or a momentum car as wel as a 944na. The 951 and 944na have really soft suspension and require a lot of mods to get them right. I also have seen many 951/944 cars go home on a rollback with the famous #2 rod bearing knocking. Thats where the fun ends. A boxster may need modified oiling to be competetive racing, but they hold up very well at DEs. Boxsters tend to push when stock, but can be tuned minamally with shocks and sways and be quit fast. I think an older na 944 can be a double edged sword. A boxster can be a plug and play option and very reliable too.
Also just past the "limit", the 944na can be handled. A mid-engined car tends to snap uncontrollably and spin like a top in an unpredictable direction. Driving technique will be different as you skills develop. An air cooled 911 SC makes a great car for DEs - another possibility and you will be passing boxsters and 944/951 all day.
Also just past the "limit", the 944na can be handled. A mid-engined car tends to snap uncontrollably and spin like a top in an unpredictable direction. Driving technique will be different as you skills develop. An air cooled 911 SC makes a great car for DEs - another possibility and you will be passing boxsters and 944/951 all day.
#38
Three Wheelin'
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Been there done that. It sucks. I had to replace the motor in my 944 because of it (easier at the time than a rebuild). I added the Lindsey kit that keeps the oil up around the pick up under hard cornering. It's a cheap solution that really seems to work for tracked 944s.
#39
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Been there done that. It sucks. I had to replace the motor in my 944 because of it (easier at the time than a rebuild). I added the Lindsey kit that keeps the oil up around the pick up under hard cornering. It's a cheap solution that really seems to work for tracked 944s.
I'm also going to get the 3 piece subframe from Lindsey so I can have access much quicker than propping up the engine (I have to completely rebuild the one in my Spec car anyway).
#40
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That said, if you are starting out, I would suggest that you stick with street tires. Track dedicated R-compouds have a way of hiding a driver's mistakes.
My point is: these cars are getting a bit long in the tooth. Push a 20-year old car is going to cost some. If you keep up with the maintenance, you will have no worries (for the most part). I keep up on maintenance, yet from time to time, there are issues like the ones I had at Summit Point. Poop happens -- but it seems that the older the car, the more age-related issues crop up -- especially if you are pushing the car to near its limits.
But on the other hand - all cars have their own weak points. Most 986's (first gen Boxsters) have rear main seal issues, for example. The good thing about the 944 chassis is that it has been around for a long time -- so most of it's weak points have already been discovered and fixes are available. The trick is to find an example in which all the fixes have been recently applied.
Originally Posted by ajcjr
]Would you rate the 944 as a good beginner car that you can grow with?
Sorry for the long post,
-Z-man.
#41
Three Wheelin'
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It is a terrific car that you can grow with as your ability increases. I would strongly suggest that you start with a good, clean, solid STOCK 944. It has plenty of suspension for you get start learning the dynamics of track driving. If you start with a cup car, or one with a modified suspension, you will actually learn slower how to drive well, IMHO. The more improved a car is, the greater the chance of the car hiding the driver's mistakes. With a bone stock car, if you blow a corner, you will most likely notice it and pay for it the rest of the session.
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What do you consider "stock", WRT to suspension? Yellow Konis are certainly better than the trash that comes with these cars, but I wouldn't go back to that just to be "stoock".
#42
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I remember reading that a couple 944 cup guys had the 3 piece cross member fail on them. Just something to think about...
#43
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#44
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If one starts with a totally stock suspension, AND one develops his own driving style, it is far easier (and less expensive) to update the suspension to suit his needs, and not what someone else thought was a good setup. I have seen some really funky suspension combinations that in paper don't really work - but the owner thought it would be a good idea, and felt a marked improvement in their car (while in reality, they only had a ill-handling car -- they just didn't know how to drive it.)
-Z-man.
#45
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Most of us do that and alot more. Somethings are easy like always checking oil level and never letting it drop or by using a high quaility oil. Others take a bit more work like 944 Turbo oil coolers and periodic bearing replacements. Even so it is an issue that can be managed and while never completely solved motor can still last a very very long time.