I'm getting ready for a Driver's Ed event at Mid-Ohio and found out that NNJR PCA requires either a 3" lapbelt or a harness if you have "Engine Modifications", ug.

I planned on eventually getting a roll bar, but now I have to work something out in a week. I've read postings on other boards saying that harness bars are a "recipe for death", because you are strapped upright with no roll protection.

I have a set of 3" harnesses I bought from a friend, should I hook them up to a harness bar or could/should I hook up just the belt part in addition to the stock seat belts??

Any opinions on this? Is it better to have a harness bar with a harness or the stock seat belts??

 

Well I know several people that run a harness bar with harnesses and haven't had any problems. I run a rollbar with harnesses in my car at DEs.

I mean realistically how are you gonna roll over at a DE? Sure it's possible and anything can happen, but I'd just stick the harness bar in there for this one and set up your rollbar afterwards.

The strapped upright thing is a bit paranoid if you're using the stock seats, because you CAN move around some in it because the harnesses don't hold you as tightly as with race seats since they don't fit around the seats quite right. They work well enough to hold you in the seat and makes driving a lot easier, but it's not to the point where you can't move at all.

I think you'll be fine with just the harness bar and when you're ready, move up to the rollbar and sell the harness bar.

 

As one of the track tech chairs for NNJR, here's my opinion:

1. I (personally) suggest the use of a set of harnesses with a harness bar. The harnesses must NOT be attached to the harness bar, but rather looped over it, and attached to the rear seat belt mounting points. Many have argued that this is not a good way of doing it: I am convinced this is the proper way, and the only way a set of harnesses should be used in conjunction with a harness bar. If you have a roll-bar, then, and only then, can harnesses be directly attached to the unit.

2. You cannot run without a harness bar if you use racing harnesses: the angle of the belts are too great: in the event of a collision, you can have compression of the spinal column.

3. I have heard the arguement regarding lack of roll-over protection with harnesses and no roll-bar. Certainly, the more safety equipment you have, the better. I cannot argue against the use of roll-over protection, but I do feel that running with harnesses without a roll-bar you should be safe, especially in the 944 series cars. The pictures of roll-overs that I've seen with the 944 series have shown consitently that our B-pillars have been able to withstand a lot of force in a roll-over. I do not think I have ever seens a 944 that was flattened in a roll-over. The A-pillar is the weakest point on our roofs. Thus, getting a roll-bar (and not a roll-cage with a section going across the top of the windshield), will not help the weakest point in our cars. So, many people will install a roll-bar that only reinforces the B-pillar section, and that leaves the weakest point NOT reinforced!

4. A racing harness will also help you sit securely in the seat while driving, so you spend less effort struggling against the g-forces while driving.

Regardless of what you decide, the safest thing you can do is be a safe driver: heads up driving is the key. Know your limits, and know what to do if you have gone beyond your limits.

HTH.
-Z.

 

I saw the underside of a 944 at Mid-Ohio a few years ago. The car went off track and caught a corner in a tire barrier. The B-pillar was fine, the windshield had a lot more rake. The driver had installed a 5-point harness just before and was fairly tall, so he was the same height coming out as going in. His only injury was next to his hip ($$$$).

 

Z-man......

1) Amen!

2) Amen!

3) Amen!

4) Amen!

Best advice I've seen in a long time......

 

Z-man,

I have to disagree with you on looping the harnesses over the bar versus attaching them straight to the bar. Looping the harness over the bar will only increase the force on the bar because it will essentially be turned into a pulley. If the bar fails in either setup, loop versus direct, there will be enough slack in the harness that the person will be able to hit the dash, steering wheel, etc. Also harness will stretch a given percentage of the total length so the longer the length the more it will stretch.

As to the orginal question - are harness bars safe. I think they are fine to start off with but as a drivers skill increases and their track speed increases, the chance of a more severe crash increases although the chance of any wreck decreases. At this point I really think some sort of roll bar would be prudent.

 

Excellent! Thanks for the advice!

It's ironic that the more experienced drivers have better safety equipment. I'm not sure I understand why the "chance of more severe crashes increases" with more experience. In the straights where speeds are the highest, I doubt that an experienced driver is going faster than a novice driver. At this point it probably depends on the car. A dangerous situation I have seen, for instance, is when a novice driver passes very late in the straight at high speeds.

 

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by Darren:
<strong>Excellent! Thanks for the advice!

...I'm not sure I understand why the "chance of more severe crashes increases" with more experience. In the straights where speeds are the highest, I doubt that an experienced driver is going faster than a novice driver...</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">An experienced driver on track tires will be going faster on every point of the track than a novice drive. An experienced driver will be carrying much more speed than a novice driver through the corners and if their exit speed is 20 mph faster than the novice driver going onto a straight then why wouldn't their top speed on the straight also be at least 20 mph higher - assuming equal cars. Also the high speeds on the straights really aren't the danger areas - unless your brakes fail. The danger areas are on the faster turns - sweepers, kinks, etc. The faster one is going through a fast sweeper, the better chance that person has of rolling if they make a mistake and say hook a curb rather than just spinning/going off track if the same mistake was made at lower speeds. The thing to keep in mind is that the frequency of crashes drastically decreases with the experience of a driver because they are not likely to make a rookie mistake like lifting in a turn. Make sure you get some rides with some of the fast drivers in track prepped cars at Mid-Ohio and you'll see what I mean. Turn 1 at Mid-Ohio is a great example of discrepancy in speeds between experienced drivers and novice drivers.

 

Skip, while I agree that shorter runs of harness belts reduces foward pitch of the body, due to less stretch, the attachment of belts to a guide bar should only be done if the bar is specifically designed for those loads. I took a look at the older threads about the pulley effect and it seems plausible, but I would recommend using a bar the way the manufacturer designed it, not to mention most regions disallow this type of arrangement, I know mine does anyway, and we generally follow national guidelines so I'm assuming this is fairly common. Harness belts should always be as tight as you can get them anyway, to reduce stretch. The use of 5 or 6 point harnesses should be discouraged with stock Porsche seats, the shoulder harness can (and does in some instances) slip off.

 

I always figured that hitting something head-on is far more likely than rolling over, and in that case having proper harnesses will help you more than the standard 3-pt belts. Also, like Z-man already stated, they will hold you in the seat much better - which is a huge plus.