Which is better: S-4 brakes or Big Reds?
03-27-2002, 09:59 PM
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Which is better: S-4 brakes or Big Reds?
I am upgrading my brakes. but i am not sure if big reds are worth the money over the s-4's. Any opinions? thanks
03-27-2002, 10:09 PM
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Big reds are usually less money than the S4's. Yes, the Big reds do provide more surface area, and most people prefer them. Some people complain the the Big red calipers "flex" more than the S4 ones.
03-28-2002, 12:44 AM
#6
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They both weigh about the same. The S4 caliper is what comes on the TurboS and is to be used with a 304mm rotor. The Big Red/Black is meant to be used with a 322mm rotor.
03-28-2002, 12:45 AM
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[quote]Originally posted by Indica:
<strong>i am not sure if big reds are worth the money over the s-4's.</strong><hr></blockquote>I guess it depends on what you want to do with your car and what rotors you'd like to run.
My feeling is the big reds (or big blacks in my case) when fitted with the 911 "drilled" rotors are superior to the S4 calipers and non-drilled or sloted rotors. I always thought my son's '89 turbo had great brakes but they feel dead compared to the pedal feel of the larger calipers and drilled rotors. I love them and I'm not switching
The S4s do have some advantages though... lighter weight, can be used with 16" wheels, cheaper rotors.
If you are buying new, the big red or big black calipers are less money then the S4 type.
<strong>i am not sure if big reds are worth the money over the s-4's.</strong><hr></blockquote>I guess it depends on what you want to do with your car and what rotors you'd like to run.
My feeling is the big reds (or big blacks in my case) when fitted with the 911 "drilled" rotors are superior to the S4 calipers and non-drilled or sloted rotors. I always thought my son's '89 turbo had great brakes but they feel dead compared to the pedal feel of the larger calipers and drilled rotors. I love them and I'm not switching
The S4s do have some advantages though... lighter weight, can be used with 16" wheels, cheaper rotors.
If you are buying new, the big red or big black calipers are less money then the S4 type.
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03-28-2002, 01:57 AM
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Does anybody know how much the S-4 brakes with rotors weigh compared to the big red/black set up?
I know you can buy the alloy hats for the BR or BB brakes to further reduce the unsprung weight.
Seems like the only real advantage to the S-4 brakes is that you get the best brake with a 16inch wheel. If you are willing to run 17s you get a better brake for less money with the Big Reds or Big Black set up.
What do you guys think about the drilled rotors vs the ND. I know the cast holes are best but I hear they still crack. Also I have heard the drilling only improves wet brakeing and cooling at a slight decrease in swept area.
No question about he looks! Drilled look the best.
I am considering upgrading to the Big Blacks with the cast drilled rotors on my 93 968. what do you guys recommend for the rears?
Also Tom, did you change out the bias valve on your car?
Thanks - Doug
I know you can buy the alloy hats for the BR or BB brakes to further reduce the unsprung weight.
Seems like the only real advantage to the S-4 brakes is that you get the best brake with a 16inch wheel. If you are willing to run 17s you get a better brake for less money with the Big Reds or Big Black set up.
What do you guys think about the drilled rotors vs the ND. I know the cast holes are best but I hear they still crack. Also I have heard the drilling only improves wet brakeing and cooling at a slight decrease in swept area.
No question about he looks! Drilled look the best.
I am considering upgrading to the Big Blacks with the cast drilled rotors on my 93 968. what do you guys recommend for the rears?
Also Tom, did you change out the bias valve on your car?
Thanks - Doug
03-28-2002, 02:32 AM
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DAMN! I'm always weighing things, and I JUST changed all four rotors on my Turbo S as well as pads today. I DID weigh the old rotors and the new ones, which are Zimmerman X-drilled- the front's were almost dead on 15lbs (a hair under) and the rears were ~13.5 - 14lbs. The new worn out undrilled ones weighed exactly the same as the brand new x-drilled ones (or as close as I could tell w/the bathroom scale I was using. Oh well, too bad I didn't weight the calipers too. I've been told that the BR/GTS only weigh ~1lb more than the S4's though.
There are some places that do believe that the S4 calipers are better than the BR/GTS- the reasons are, that the S4's are supposed to deflect less (as Tabor said), they are SUPPOSED to be able to accomodate a larger rotor in the end (I'm not too sure about that- it really doesn't make much sense, and i've never honestly heard of anyone running a larger rotor w/an S4 than they could w/a BR), and third (and Tom loves it when I say this), but there are people who contend that the pistons in the S4's are a tiny bit larger- 38mm & 44mm vs 36mm & 44mm, but as Tom would say, they are IDENTICAL. I know that the Porsche parts catalog lists them as having the same size piston, so Tom's probably right on that. KVR is one of the places that contends that the S4's are better, and if you really care, you should call them, BUT, if you have 17" wheels, and want the best performance at the best cost, then I would stick to BR/GTS, as they are cheaper, and you can get 12.7" rotors easily for them, and they're much more common and simpler to use in an upgrade. If you have 16" rims, then that could make a big difference and depends on what you want to do overall...
There are some places that do believe that the S4 calipers are better than the BR/GTS- the reasons are, that the S4's are supposed to deflect less (as Tabor said), they are SUPPOSED to be able to accomodate a larger rotor in the end (I'm not too sure about that- it really doesn't make much sense, and i've never honestly heard of anyone running a larger rotor w/an S4 than they could w/a BR), and third (and Tom loves it when I say this), but there are people who contend that the pistons in the S4's are a tiny bit larger- 38mm & 44mm vs 36mm & 44mm, but as Tom would say, they are IDENTICAL. I know that the Porsche parts catalog lists them as having the same size piston, so Tom's probably right on that. KVR is one of the places that contends that the S4's are better, and if you really care, you should call them, BUT, if you have 17" wheels, and want the best performance at the best cost, then I would stick to BR/GTS, as they are cheaper, and you can get 12.7" rotors easily for them, and they're much more common and simpler to use in an upgrade. If you have 16" rims, then that could make a big difference and depends on what you want to do overall...
03-28-2002, 02:48 AM
#10
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"I am upgrading my brakes."
I guess we jump ahead a bit here. I'd like to ask "why"? you are upgrading your brakes? Is it that you're overheating them at the track? Are you after shorter braking distances? On a single stop or on multiple max-effort stops?
I was interested in getting a BR brake upgrade like veryone else. We're really not limited to just Porsche parts you know. So now, I'm looking at getting a set of 6-piston Wilwood brakes. They have a lower "over rotor" height than the Big Red/Blacks, which means I'll be able to run a full 330mm/13" rotor compared to the BR's 322mm. And at 3.75lbs each, they're about 1/2 the weight of the BR calipers.
I just gotta find someone who'll make me some custom hats to specs... Coleman I think...
I guess we jump ahead a bit here. I'd like to ask "why"? you are upgrading your brakes? Is it that you're overheating them at the track? Are you after shorter braking distances? On a single stop or on multiple max-effort stops?
I was interested in getting a BR brake upgrade like veryone else. We're really not limited to just Porsche parts you know. So now, I'm looking at getting a set of 6-piston Wilwood brakes. They have a lower "over rotor" height than the Big Red/Blacks, which means I'll be able to run a full 330mm/13" rotor compared to the BR's 322mm. And at 3.75lbs each, they're about 1/2 the weight of the BR calipers.
I just gotta find someone who'll make me some custom hats to specs... Coleman I think...
03-28-2002, 03:12 AM
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[quote]Originally posted by Doug:
Does anybody know how much the S-4 brakes with rotors weigh compared to the big red/black set up?<hr></blockquote>I'd say it's at least 5 lbs, and almost all of that is in the rotor. This is just a guess based on Robby's weights and what I've heard the larger rotors weigh. I plan to get precise measurements when I change from the 1-piece to the 2-piece setup.
[quote]I know you can buy the alloy hats for the BR or BB brakes to further reduce the unsprung weight.<hr></blockquote>I'm not too sure how much you can save here. I have a new set of 993TT rotors and I'm fitting the Kokeln alloy hats to them because I was told this combination would weigh about 4 lbs less per wheel. I say BS. The Kokeln alloy hat is nearly as heavy as the 993TT steel hat it replaces. Unless the steel 2-piece rotor/hat combination is significantly lighter than the 1-piece 911 C2 3.6 turbo rotors, I don't see much of a savings.
[quote]What do you guys think about the drilled rotors vs the ND. I know the cast holes are best but I hear they still crack.<hr></blockquote>They will still crack with heavy track use but there's no question they cool better and warp less... and as you say, they are definitely the best looking
You can use the 928 GTS rotors but they will weigh even more.
[quote]I am considering upgrading to the Big Blacks with the cast drilled rotors on my 93 968. what do you guys recommend for the rears?<hr></blockquote>Stock 968 calipers with M030 rear rotors if you want a holy rotor look. I have pictures of these on my web site.
[quote]Also Tom, did you change out the bias valve on your car?<hr></blockquote>I have the 5/33 valve. It works well, but the 5/45 might be even better.
Does anybody know how much the S-4 brakes with rotors weigh compared to the big red/black set up?<hr></blockquote>I'd say it's at least 5 lbs, and almost all of that is in the rotor. This is just a guess based on Robby's weights and what I've heard the larger rotors weigh. I plan to get precise measurements when I change from the 1-piece to the 2-piece setup.
[quote]I know you can buy the alloy hats for the BR or BB brakes to further reduce the unsprung weight.<hr></blockquote>I'm not too sure how much you can save here. I have a new set of 993TT rotors and I'm fitting the Kokeln alloy hats to them because I was told this combination would weigh about 4 lbs less per wheel. I say BS. The Kokeln alloy hat is nearly as heavy as the 993TT steel hat it replaces. Unless the steel 2-piece rotor/hat combination is significantly lighter than the 1-piece 911 C2 3.6 turbo rotors, I don't see much of a savings.
[quote]What do you guys think about the drilled rotors vs the ND. I know the cast holes are best but I hear they still crack.<hr></blockquote>They will still crack with heavy track use but there's no question they cool better and warp less... and as you say, they are definitely the best looking
You can use the 928 GTS rotors but they will weigh even more.[quote]I am considering upgrading to the Big Blacks with the cast drilled rotors on my 93 968. what do you guys recommend for the rears?<hr></blockquote>Stock 968 calipers with M030 rear rotors if you want a holy rotor look. I have pictures of these on my web site.
[quote]Also Tom, did you change out the bias valve on your car?<hr></blockquote>I have the 5/33 valve. It works well, but the 5/45 might be even better.
03-28-2002, 03:50 AM
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so much info- wow!
Seems like the big reds are the best way to go- but boy do those six piston calipers sound good! Id be interested in a setup like that as long as the price wasnt too much more than big reds. How much for custom hats?
I currently feel that my stock brakes are underpowered and all I have right now is close to 300hp. After my brakes- suspention upgrades i plan on building a 400ish HP motor- so i KNOW that i will need some serious braking power. I am hoping to add more power on multiple max effort stops.
Seems like the big reds are the best way to go- but boy do those six piston calipers sound good! Id be interested in a setup like that as long as the price wasnt too much more than big reds. How much for custom hats?
I currently feel that my stock brakes are underpowered and all I have right now is close to 300hp. After my brakes- suspention upgrades i plan on building a 400ish HP motor- so i KNOW that i will need some serious braking power. I am hoping to add more power on multiple max effort stops.
03-28-2002, 04:46 AM
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<a href="http://prospeedmotorsport.com/index.htm" target="_blank">Prospeed motorsports</a>
look under brakes. They are the only ones to have a 996tt brake upgrade, as well as the BR rear upgrade.
SFR has the lowest price for the complete kit on the BR front.
Lindsey racing has the front kit as well.
look under brakes. They are the only ones to have a 996tt brake upgrade, as well as the BR rear upgrade.
SFR has the lowest price for the complete kit on the BR front.
Lindsey racing has the front kit as well.
03-28-2002, 10:10 AM
#14
Nordschleife Master
Danno,
Keep us updated as to how the research into the Wilwood calipers goes. I am putting S4 brakes on my car next week, but this is only an intermediate step, I would like to go a step up from them.
Keep us updated as to how the research into the Wilwood calipers goes. I am putting S4 brakes on my car next week, but this is only an intermediate step, I would like to go a step up from them.
03-28-2002, 10:53 AM
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Some quick notes about the Wilwoods and other 'racing' calipers in general:
1. Typically (but not always), most racing calipers have no provisions for dust boots, sheilds, or other nice-to-have things when running on the street. Most manufacturers recommened that you rebuild a racing caliper every year (but they are easy to rebuild). I'd be hesitant to use a 'racing' caliper on a primarily street driven car. It can definately be done (I know people who have been doing it).
2. The wilwoods that I have seen (the dynalight/II) have terrible, leaky bleed valves. I have two friends (both using the same model wilwood caliper) who ended up having to swap to a OEM toyota bleed valve to cure the leaking problems.
3. Pads are CHEAP, CHEAP CHEAP!!! (compared against the crazy S4/BR pad prices!)
Just my .02c
1. Typically (but not always), most racing calipers have no provisions for dust boots, sheilds, or other nice-to-have things when running on the street. Most manufacturers recommened that you rebuild a racing caliper every year (but they are easy to rebuild). I'd be hesitant to use a 'racing' caliper on a primarily street driven car. It can definately be done (I know people who have been doing it).
2. The wilwoods that I have seen (the dynalight/II) have terrible, leaky bleed valves. I have two friends (both using the same model wilwood caliper) who ended up having to swap to a OEM toyota bleed valve to cure the leaking problems.
3. Pads are CHEAP, CHEAP CHEAP!!! (compared against the crazy S4/BR pad prices!)
Just my .02c