which is more reliable, 951 or 928?
02-22-2008, 03:16 PM
#76
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02-22-2008, 03:28 PM
#77
Team Owner
.. I've owned both a 944 and 911 and found the 944 to be more reliable in general as it won't leave you stranded , but tonnes of things go wrong that are anoying. The 911 has had VERY few problems, but the ones that did, had me at the side of the road.
fair ?
fair ?
02-22-2008, 03:49 PM
#78
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To call my "two-faced" because I spend time on the V8 board is rather hilarious. If you recall the only people I had anything bad to say about were you and NZ (because at the time NZ was the second biggest instigator on the boards, of course since then he has cleaned up his act and frankly he has much more technical contribution to these forums than you EVER will). There's a reason the V8 guys formed there own forum. Anyone who can't recognize the amount of tech knowlege they have and can contribute is a fool. And to simply dismiss them, antagonize them, and call them knuckle-draggers and rednecks is just wrong. Did someone drop a V8 on your head as a child? If so that does explain a lot. You seem to hate all v8cars and their users/owners. You might want to seek therapy.
You seem to enjoy judging people based on what they drive. To your "ricer" comments aimed at me, all I can say is I am not pretending to be anything with my car and its looks. What I do with my car, its suspension, drivetrain, and body panels is my business.
Frankly, the fact that you and some other specific post-****** are allowed to run rampant on these forums is rather disappointing. Most of Renn is a good group of guys, but to quote an old saying "one bad apple spoils the bunch". You are one of those bad apples.
Smell ya later.
Originally Posted by tifosiman
Zowie!
That was a well-written, hard-hitting post you made over there Doug. While I don't have a V-8 in my car (yet............I am seriously leaning that way though......), I totally agree with your comments. Heck, even if I wasn't even considering a swap I would still agree with you. The way that most 944/951 owners act is a weird mix of "I can't keep my car clean/maintained properly" and "You can't do that, IT IS A PORSCHE".
Frankly, if I sold my car or traded it for another project, one of the main deciding factors would be the majority of ****tards that own these cars. I hate to be associated with them most days.
I catch flack all of the time for the work that I have done on my car, and it doesn't even have a motor swap. That's just insane.
Zowie!
That was a well-written, hard-hitting post you made over there Doug. While I don't have a V-8 in my car (yet............I am seriously leaning that way though......), I totally agree with your comments. Heck, even if I wasn't even considering a swap I would still agree with you. The way that most 944/951 owners act is a weird mix of "I can't keep my car clean/maintained properly" and "You can't do that, IT IS A PORSCHE".
Frankly, if I sold my car or traded it for another project, one of the main deciding factors would be the majority of ****tards that own these cars. I hate to be associated with them most days.
I catch flack all of the time for the work that I have done on my car, and it doesn't even have a motor swap. That's just insane.
02-22-2008, 04:01 PM
#79
RL Community Team
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theiceman, that sounds about right. The 944 is fragile in that it has quite a few design flaws, but it is robust in that those deign flaws won't stop the car in its tracks.
To answer which car is easier to work on (944 or 928), in general the 944 is easier. I think the only big thing that stands out as harder on the 944 is the clutch. We have owned 3 928s and 5 944/968s so I do have some experience with this.
To answer which car is easier to work on (944 or 928), in general the 944 is easier. I think the only big thing that stands out as harder on the 944 is the clutch. We have owned 3 928s and 5 944/968s so I do have some experience with this.
02-22-2008, 04:57 PM
#81
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Looking back, if you have the heads off, that is the best time to replace the master
02-22-2008, 11:57 PM
#82
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Here is my running Porsche ownership history,
1988 Porsche 928S4
1993 Porsche 928 GTS
1986 Porsche 944
1987 Porsche 944S
1987 Porsche 944
1984 Porsche 944
1986 Porsche 944 Turbo
1987 Porsche 924S
1987 Porsche 944 Turbo
1987 Porsche 928S4
1985 Porsche 944
1986 Porsche 928S (5 speed)
1987 928S4
I would say the 951 is 2x the maintenance cost of a 944 N/A and a 32V 928 is 3x the cost.
If you hunt for a deal you can find decent 951 or early 32V 928 for $5k-$7k U.S but I would stick with a 944 N/A if money is tight.
Importing into Canada is easy just pay GST/PST + 6.1% duty plus $100 A/C tax and then get it inspected.
1988 Porsche 928S4
1993 Porsche 928 GTS
1986 Porsche 944
1987 Porsche 944S
1987 Porsche 944
1984 Porsche 944
1986 Porsche 944 Turbo
1987 Porsche 924S
1987 Porsche 944 Turbo
1987 Porsche 928S4
1985 Porsche 944
1986 Porsche 928S (5 speed)
1987 928S4
I would say the 951 is 2x the maintenance cost of a 944 N/A and a 32V 928 is 3x the cost.
If you hunt for a deal you can find decent 951 or early 32V 928 for $5k-$7k U.S but I would stick with a 944 N/A if money is tight.
Importing into Canada is easy just pay GST/PST + 6.1% duty plus $100 A/C tax and then get it inspected.
02-23-2008, 12:19 AM
#83
RL Community Team
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.- door panels
- fenders
- transmission
- sunroof
- coolant tank
- intake
- battery
Of course there are a few things on the 928 which are easier, like the oil filter. The 928 has many advantages but I just don't think ease of work is one of them. It's a higher-end car, comes with the territory.
02-23-2008, 12:52 AM
#84
Lazer Beam Shooter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tifosiman View Post
To call my "two-faced" because I spend time on the V8 board is rather hilarious. If you recall the only people I had anything bad to say about were you and NZ (because at the time NZ was the second biggest instigator on the boards, of course since then he has cleaned up his act and frankly he has much more technical contribution to these forums than you EVER will). There's a reason the V8 guys formed there own forum. Anyone who can't recognize the amount of tech knowlege they have and can contribute is a fool. And to simply dismiss them, antagonize them, and call them knuckle-draggers and rednecks is just wrong. Did someone drop a V8 on your head as a child? If so that does explain a lot. You seem to hate all v8cars and their users/owners. You might want to seek therapy.
You seem to enjoy judging people based on what they drive. To your "ricer" comments aimed at me, all I can say is I am not pretending to be anything with my car and its looks. What I do with my car, its suspension, drivetrain, and body panels is my business.
Frankly, the fact that you and some other specific post-****** are allowed to run rampant on these forums is rather disappointing. Most of Renn is a good group of guys, but to quote an old saying "one bad apple spoils the bunch". You are one of those bad apples.
Smell ya later.
Okay, now that I got your attention, once again I will prove you wrong. The reason why I was against the v8 board wasn’t because their conversions, it was because they despised this forum and it's members. It was their attitude that was wrong not the v8’s. Back to topic I rather take the insults from the V8 guys and the 928 guys than deal with a two face hypocrite like you. Many of the guys who frequent this board are young kids who got their first car and since they are young well they are immature and that’s totally acceptable, no need to despise them, ridicule them or make fun of them, but you have done exactly that, shame on you tifo. I got in trouble with the v8 guys for defending RENNLIST, my posts might not be technical but at least I don’t go behind our own guys back and talk smack about them. This post will expose the real tifo;
Quote:
Originally Posted by tifosiman
Zowie!
That was a well-written, hard-hitting post you made over there Doug. While I don't have a V-8 in my car (yet............I am seriously leaning that way though......), I totally agree with your comments. Heck, even if I wasn't even considering a swap I would still agree with you. The way that most 944/951 owners act is a weird mix of "I can't keep my car clean/maintained properly" and "You can't do that, IT IS A PORSCHE".
Frankly, if I sold my car or traded it for another project, one of the main deciding factors would be the majority of ****tards that own these cars. I hate to be associated with them most days.
I catch flack all of the time for the work that I have done on my car, and it doesn't even have a motor swap. That's just insane.
can someone quote
Originally Posted by tifosiman View Post
To call my "two-faced" because I spend time on the V8 board is rather hilarious. If you recall the only people I had anything bad to say about were you and NZ (because at the time NZ was the second biggest instigator on the boards, of course since then he has cleaned up his act and frankly he has much more technical contribution to these forums than you EVER will). There's a reason the V8 guys formed there own forum. Anyone who can't recognize the amount of tech knowlege they have and can contribute is a fool. And to simply dismiss them, antagonize them, and call them knuckle-draggers and rednecks is just wrong. Did someone drop a V8 on your head as a child? If so that does explain a lot. You seem to hate all v8cars and their users/owners. You might want to seek therapy.
You seem to enjoy judging people based on what they drive. To your "ricer" comments aimed at me, all I can say is I am not pretending to be anything with my car and its looks. What I do with my car, its suspension, drivetrain, and body panels is my business.
Frankly, the fact that you and some other specific post-****** are allowed to run rampant on these forums is rather disappointing. Most of Renn is a good group of guys, but to quote an old saying "one bad apple spoils the bunch". You are one of those bad apples.
Smell ya later.
Okay, now that I got your attention, once again I will prove you wrong. The reason why I was against the v8 board wasn’t because their conversions, it was because they despised this forum and it's members. It was their attitude that was wrong not the v8’s. Back to topic I rather take the insults from the V8 guys and the 928 guys than deal with a two face hypocrite like you. Many of the guys who frequent this board are young kids who got their first car and since they are young well they are immature and that’s totally acceptable, no need to despise them, ridicule them or make fun of them, but you have done exactly that, shame on you tifo. I got in trouble with the v8 guys for defending RENNLIST, my posts might not be technical but at least I don’t go behind our own guys back and talk smack about them. This post will expose the real tifo;
Quote:
Originally Posted by tifosiman
Zowie!
That was a well-written, hard-hitting post you made over there Doug. While I don't have a V-8 in my car (yet............I am seriously leaning that way though......), I totally agree with your comments. Heck, even if I wasn't even considering a swap I would still agree with you. The way that most 944/951 owners act is a weird mix of "I can't keep my car clean/maintained properly" and "You can't do that, IT IS A PORSCHE".
Frankly, if I sold my car or traded it for another project, one of the main deciding factors would be the majority of ****tards that own these cars. I hate to be associated with them most days.
I catch flack all of the time for the work that I have done on my car, and it doesn't even have a motor swap. That's just insane.
can someone quote
02-23-2008, 01:46 AM
#85
Drifting
Thread Starter
I forgot to mention that the 944 I have now is my only car and I depend on it to get me to school (about 60 km trip back and forth) and work everyday and after doing a lot of work to it it's really reliable now with no issues.
to get a 951 or 928 I'd have to sell the 944 this spring after my classes are over and then buy a 928 or 951 and use that as a daily driver.
thing is I'd have to buy a nice well maintained car as I don't want to spend 2 years making it reliable.
when I bought my 944 I had some down time with it when the oil pan / oil pump started gushing oil. motor mounts were shot and were replaced, timing belt and water pump were replaced etc.
oh forgot about the water leaks which I had to fix and had to remove the entire interior to fix and clean the mold /wate leaks.
another question , are the 928s also prone to water leaks? every 944 I have seen had some water leaks with wet rear seats etc.
now after a lot of work my 944 is bone dry and no more leaks, everything was leaking on it, the sunroof, the quarter windows, the batter box, the heater fan assembly.
Buying a car in teh summer and finding out in the winter that it turns into a swimming pool = no fun.
considering my budget I think I'm going to look for a early 16 valve 928 in good condition.
are the early 3 speed autos still fun to drive?
also I'm not sure if i would want a 78-79 with CIS. I used to have a 78 924 with CIS and I hated the CIS , I don't think it's reliable and it never seems to run right, efi seems like a much more reliable system.
also not sure how practical it is to commute to school with a 928. From what I heard the CIS cars are horrible with gas milliage. my 944 already uses about 50 dollars of gas a week to get me to school and work.
anyone know which year 928s are confirmed to be non-interference motors?
If I can find one I think the 80-81 928 with EFI and non interference motor would be the best choice for me.
to get a 951 or 928 I'd have to sell the 944 this spring after my classes are over and then buy a 928 or 951 and use that as a daily driver.
thing is I'd have to buy a nice well maintained car as I don't want to spend 2 years making it reliable.
when I bought my 944 I had some down time with it when the oil pan / oil pump started gushing oil. motor mounts were shot and were replaced, timing belt and water pump were replaced etc.
oh forgot about the water leaks which I had to fix and had to remove the entire interior to fix and clean the mold /wate leaks.
another question , are the 928s also prone to water leaks? every 944 I have seen had some water leaks with wet rear seats etc.
now after a lot of work my 944 is bone dry and no more leaks, everything was leaking on it, the sunroof, the quarter windows, the batter box, the heater fan assembly.
Buying a car in teh summer and finding out in the winter that it turns into a swimming pool = no fun.
considering my budget I think I'm going to look for a early 16 valve 928 in good condition.
are the early 3 speed autos still fun to drive?
also I'm not sure if i would want a 78-79 with CIS. I used to have a 78 924 with CIS and I hated the CIS , I don't think it's reliable and it never seems to run right, efi seems like a much more reliable system.
also not sure how practical it is to commute to school with a 928. From what I heard the CIS cars are horrible with gas milliage. my 944 already uses about 50 dollars of gas a week to get me to school and work.
anyone know which year 928s are confirmed to be non-interference motors?
If I can find one I think the 80-81 928 with EFI and non interference motor would be the best choice for me.
02-23-2008, 02:55 AM
#86
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
I've heard that the 78-82 is non-interference. But I think all the 16v is non-interference, with the 83-84 just having 0 tolerance (i.e. valves will clear pistons, but even a layer of carbon will close the gap and cause contact). But I'm sure a 928 guy will chime in and set me straight. Hacker?
I wouldn't even bother with CIS. I'm sure it's fine and dandy when it's running. But when it's not... My brother had a VW with CIS and ugh, what a PITA. If a simply lowly VW can't be ok with CIS then I don't even want to think of a porsche with CIS. I wouldn't call a 928 EFI system reliable. Again I'll let a 928 tell you which is better.
I wouldn't even bother with CIS. I'm sure it's fine and dandy when it's running. But when it's not... My brother had a VW with CIS and ugh, what a PITA. If a simply lowly VW can't be ok with CIS then I don't even want to think of a porsche with CIS. I wouldn't call a 928 EFI system reliable. Again I'll let a 928 tell you which is better.
02-23-2008, 01:29 PM
#88
Addict
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This is totally different thing than saying 928 as a car is bad design and isn't well made. Many current owners need to do long rebuilds simply because they do it all DIY style and also need to raise money to do it. This partly explains why so many 928's seem to be on the docks and not driven daily. Car itself it relaible as long as it receives quality service. Its just that many owners haven't made sure their cars did get it and current owners must fix these problems.
02-23-2008, 02:01 PM
#89
Rainman
Rennlist Member
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just to clarify i didnt mean the 928 as a whole when i said "PITA", i love them and hope to buy one soon i already have parts for it laying around my room lol.
the PITA stuff is just the difficult jobs that you have to face eventually (WIRING etc).
now what i was talking about is that when the 928 was designed and sold it was the premium porsche, the most expensive and best performing car the company offered. it is an engineering masterpiece but wasn't designed for the garage mechanic to work on. it was built to usher the bankers and aristocrats comfortably and quickly to their places of business, and if something broke it was expected that it would be returned to the dealer to have the professional porsche mechanics fix it.
20 and for some cars 30 years later the car is affordable to everyman. but like any older car it has its issues, not because of design flaws, but simply due to age.
my own 944 had 65000 miles since new when i bought it, but simply due to age the headgasket blew and the oil cooler went nuclear 2 weeks after i got it to my driveway. for both cars, once you deal with some of the age issues im sure they will last for a long, long time.
i already have parts for it laying around my room lol.the PITA stuff is just the difficult jobs that you have to face eventually (WIRING etc).
now what i was talking about is that when the 928 was designed and sold it was the premium porsche, the most expensive and best performing car the company offered. it is an engineering masterpiece but wasn't designed for the garage mechanic to work on. it was built to usher the bankers and aristocrats comfortably and quickly to their places of business, and if something broke it was expected that it would be returned to the dealer to have the professional porsche mechanics fix it.
20 and for some cars 30 years later the car is affordable to everyman. but like any older car it has its issues, not because of design flaws, but simply due to age.
my own 944 had 65000 miles since new when i bought it, but simply due to age the headgasket blew and the oil cooler went nuclear 2 weeks after i got it to my driveway. for both cars, once you deal with some of the age issues im sure they will last for a long, long time.
02-23-2008, 02:28 PM
#90
Administrator - "Tyson"
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Not sure I follow.
- door panels
I've had mine off a few times, what's the issue?
- fenders
Never had to do this, so I cannot comment.
- transmission
??? It's a piece of cake to remove.
- sunroof
Mine works, so again, neutral
- coolant tank
Took me about 30 minutes to swap (took extra time to collect coolant)
- intake
I'm demonstrated how I can remove my center plenum(16V) in under 10 minutes
To remove the rest is not difficult either.
- battery
??? Very easy to get at. The gromet on my 944 battery was bad. I found out when it leaked water / battery gunk into my cabin, ruined the floor mat.
- door panels
I've had mine off a few times, what's the issue?
- fenders
Never had to do this, so I cannot comment.
- transmission
??? It's a piece of cake to remove.
- sunroof
Mine works, so again, neutral
- coolant tank
Took me about 30 minutes to swap (took extra time to collect coolant)
- intake
I'm demonstrated how I can remove my center plenum(16V) in under 10 minutes
To remove the rest is not difficult either.
- battery
??? Very easy to get at. The gromet on my 944 battery was bad. I found out when it leaked water / battery gunk into my cabin, ruined the floor mat.