My Supercharged S2 Cabriolet. Rennlist I ask you... What am I missing?
10-21-2007, 03:06 PM
#1
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
My Supercharged S2 Cabriolet. Rennlist I ask you... What am I missing?
OK guys, many of you here remember me as the guy with the custom white S2 cabrio with the 968 rear, interior, and many other custom pieces.
OK now onto the particulars.
I've bought Bleucamaro's Huntley supercharger setup and all the related hardware, including SMT7 piggyback, paperwork, etc. Awesome job on his part writing up a detailed install with pictures and all.
As many of you know he was running this setup with a 4psi pulley which he included and all not intercooled. I however would like to intercool the setup so that I can run a 6psi pulley. This way I can probably get down 275hp to 300hp at the wheels. I'd be happy with that. He was making 215hp to 220hp at the wheels on a Mustang dyno with no intercooling and with that pulley.
I have bid on a 944 Turbo intercooler on ebay and am looking to have a custom shop do the plumbing from the intercooler to the Huntley manifold which does not have holes for intercooling pipes so it will be a custom job.
I've gotten a quote from Speedforce racing of $1,000 to do the plumbing routing to the intercooler. I don't know if this is fair or not since I've never done this but that is not my question.
A. Do you think the stock Turbo intercooler is enough? Or should I spend the extra $600 and get a SFR unit? Seems the 944 3.0 motors are pretty strong and can handle power if they are setup correctly.
B. Can anyone please give me a detailed price and parts list on if I wanted to lower compression via Turbo Pistons. I'm not a gearhead so please be as detailed as possible. I'm trying to learn. I'm thinking the motor would live a lot longer and produce more power. What would be the probability of it running just fine the way it is with intercooling?
C. What other things do I need? Plugs, wires, injectors, pulleys, etc, etc. Please list it as a shopping list if you were doing the conversion yourself. I would really appreciate this.
D. Can I use a Turbo instrument cluster since it has a boost gauge? Or should i just get dedicated gauges and put them in the cubby? What gauges should I get?
E. Finally what should I look for in a shop and what should I look out for if they are trying to include stuff that doesn't matter. I'm sure when I walk up they will be licking their chops.
Thank you so much guys. And here is a pic of the setup in Bleus cars.
Hopefully by Christmas time I'll be tooling around surprising people here or there. [face_devil]
OK now onto the particulars.
I've bought Bleucamaro's Huntley supercharger setup and all the related hardware, including SMT7 piggyback, paperwork, etc. Awesome job on his part writing up a detailed install with pictures and all.
As many of you know he was running this setup with a 4psi pulley which he included and all not intercooled. I however would like to intercool the setup so that I can run a 6psi pulley. This way I can probably get down 275hp to 300hp at the wheels. I'd be happy with that. He was making 215hp to 220hp at the wheels on a Mustang dyno with no intercooling and with that pulley.
I have bid on a 944 Turbo intercooler on ebay and am looking to have a custom shop do the plumbing from the intercooler to the Huntley manifold which does not have holes for intercooling pipes so it will be a custom job.
I've gotten a quote from Speedforce racing of $1,000 to do the plumbing routing to the intercooler. I don't know if this is fair or not since I've never done this but that is not my question.
A. Do you think the stock Turbo intercooler is enough? Or should I spend the extra $600 and get a SFR unit? Seems the 944 3.0 motors are pretty strong and can handle power if they are setup correctly.
B. Can anyone please give me a detailed price and parts list on if I wanted to lower compression via Turbo Pistons. I'm not a gearhead so please be as detailed as possible. I'm trying to learn. I'm thinking the motor would live a lot longer and produce more power. What would be the probability of it running just fine the way it is with intercooling?
C. What other things do I need? Plugs, wires, injectors, pulleys, etc, etc. Please list it as a shopping list if you were doing the conversion yourself. I would really appreciate this.
D. Can I use a Turbo instrument cluster since it has a boost gauge? Or should i just get dedicated gauges and put them in the cubby? What gauges should I get?
E. Finally what should I look for in a shop and what should I look out for if they are trying to include stuff that doesn't matter. I'm sure when I walk up they will be licking their chops.
Thank you so much guys. And here is a pic of the setup in Bleus cars.
Hopefully by Christmas time I'll be tooling around surprising people here or there. [face_devil]
10-21-2007, 03:25 PM
#2
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
The 951 intercooler should be just fine at 275whp.
Turbo pistons will not fit. You could buy JE pistons and try out of the ceramic coatings that might allow them to run in the alusil bores, have your motor sleeved, or nikasil plated. This is a pretty expensive route.
You can also have your rods resized to shorten them (or get some 951 rods resized) or get some aftermarket rods, get a thicker head gasket, get some 968 pistons dished...
Personally I would try water injection and intercooling first and see if you can meet your HP goals. If E85 is available in your area you could also run that (with larger injectors) and probably run 1 bar of boost safely.
-Joel.
Turbo pistons will not fit. You could buy JE pistons and try out of the ceramic coatings that might allow them to run in the alusil bores, have your motor sleeved, or nikasil plated. This is a pretty expensive route.
You can also have your rods resized to shorten them (or get some 951 rods resized) or get some aftermarket rods, get a thicker head gasket, get some 968 pistons dished...
Personally I would try water injection and intercooling first and see if you can meet your HP goals. If E85 is available in your area you could also run that (with larger injectors) and probably run 1 bar of boost safely.
-Joel.
10-21-2007, 03:52 PM
#3
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
How do you reckon you could intercool that setup? To feed an intercooler the M90 gets a little hat that ducts air to the side. It looks like you would need a new manifold to permit intercooling. I wonder what you could do with E85 and a 4.5-5 bar of fuel pressure first. If that yields good results I would build a fuel system and tune for E85. I bet it'd fly with 8psi on E85. Hmmm.
-Joel.
-Joel.
10-21-2007, 03:57 PM
#4
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
I have spoken to Tim over at SFR on the phone and sent him the photos. He said that he can modify the Huntley manifold and route plumbing to the intercooler which would sit in the position my airbox is now.
$1,000 complete for this conversion. What do you think?
Edit: Please be an non technical as possible. Be gentle. LOL
$1,000 complete for this conversion. What do you think?
Edit: Please be an non technical as possible. Be gentle. LOL
10-21-2007, 04:35 PM
#5
Rainman
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
What's the compression ratio on that motor? Blown944 used to run 18PSI all day long with his stock 9.5:1 2.5L motor..
how exactly would you intercool the compressed air? some funky pipe setup?
how exactly would you intercool the compressed air? some funky pipe setup?
10-21-2007, 05:19 PM
#6
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Here is a drawing of the M90:
http://www.capa.com.au/pics/eaton_M90_drawing.gif
It looks to me like it's bolted to the bottom of that manifold plenum. I suppose you could cut an inlet and an outlet into the front of that plenum and then put a divider in the plenum to separate the hot and cold side. Then plumb the inlet and outlet to a 951 intercooler via some custom hardpipes. The problem with that is that the location of the divider would not leave enough room for consistent flow to #4.
Maybe if the divider was angled it would work. Another divider might be needed to split the flow of cold-side air to direct half of it to the aft side of the plenum.
Kinda like this. From left to right, Cool air inlet, divider, hot air outlet.
http://www.capa.com.au/pics/eaton_M90_drawing.gif
It looks to me like it's bolted to the bottom of that manifold plenum. I suppose you could cut an inlet and an outlet into the front of that plenum and then put a divider in the plenum to separate the hot and cold side. Then plumb the inlet and outlet to a 951 intercooler via some custom hardpipes. The problem with that is that the location of the divider would not leave enough room for consistent flow to #4.
Maybe if the divider was angled it would work. Another divider might be needed to split the flow of cold-side air to direct half of it to the aft side of the plenum.
Kinda like this. From left to right, Cool air inlet, divider, hot air outlet.
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10-21-2007, 06:29 PM
#9
Drifting
That is a mighty fine looking cab you got there lumberg!
God, at first I thought it was for sale and my heart raced. Man, beautiful car. Lets get some more photos of it!
God, at first I thought it was for sale and my heart raced. Man, beautiful car. Lets get some more photos of it!
10-21-2007, 07:47 PM
#10
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Here is a drawing of the M90:
http://www.capa.com.au/pics/eaton_M90_drawing.gif
It looks to me like it's bolted to the bottom of that manifold plenum. I suppose you could cut an inlet and an outlet into the front of that plenum and then put a divider in the plenum to separate the hot and cold side. Then plumb the inlet and outlet to a 951 intercooler via some custom hardpipes. The problem with that is that the location of the divider would not leave enough room for consistent flow to #4.
Maybe if the divider was angled it would work. Another divider might be needed to split the flow of cold-side air to direct half of it to the aft side of the plenum.
Kinda like this. From left to right, Cool air inlet, divider, hot air outlet.
http://www.capa.com.au/pics/eaton_M90_drawing.gif
It looks to me like it's bolted to the bottom of that manifold plenum. I suppose you could cut an inlet and an outlet into the front of that plenum and then put a divider in the plenum to separate the hot and cold side. Then plumb the inlet and outlet to a 951 intercooler via some custom hardpipes. The problem with that is that the location of the divider would not leave enough room for consistent flow to #4.
Maybe if the divider was angled it would work. Another divider might be needed to split the flow of cold-side air to direct half of it to the aft side of the plenum.
Kinda like this. From left to right, Cool air inlet, divider, hot air outlet.
I took some more pics today of the Cab and my Crossfire playing.
I'll post them later. Keep the suggestions coming guys. Thanks!!!dalley, what piggyback are you using? What kind of plugs? etc etc. Blown please chime in here.
Thanks Carbonrevo
10-22-2007, 03:02 PM
#12
Drifting
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What are you missing???
I would say a good camera and some good pictures of your car. Not the old out dated pictures you have on your computer. And who cares about the crossfire. Its a nice car but your s2 puts it to shame. Just pictures of the S2 by its self please. I need a new desktop. And I would love to see some nice shots of the jager trim you put on the interior.
I would say a good camera and some good pictures of your car. Not the old out dated pictures you have on your computer. And who cares about the crossfire. Its a nice car but your s2 puts it to shame. Just pictures of the S2 by its self please. I need a new desktop.
And I would love to see some nice shots of the jager trim you put on the interior.
10-22-2007, 03:34 PM
#14
Drifting
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I have pictures at home of the intercooled setup done on an 8valve N/A, but its like the MSPaint sketch above.
A. Do you think the stock Turbo intercooler is enough? Or should I spend the extra $600 and get a SFR unit? Seems the 944 3.0 motors are pretty strong and can handle power if they are setup correctly.
B. Can anyone please give me a detailed price and parts list on if I wanted to lower compression via Turbo Pistons. I'm not a gearhead so please be as detailed as possible. I'm trying to learn. I'm thinking the motor would live a lot longer and produce more power. What would be the probability of it running just fine the way it is with intercooling?I think lower compression pistons will be fairly cost prohibitive (check with "Boostfeen" or similar SN, his name is Shawn and is from the Napa area witha 968 turbo), and the best bang for the buck would be a water/ alcohol injection setup.
C. What other things do I need? Plugs, wires, injectors, pulleys, etc, etc. Please list it as a shopping list if you were doing the conversion yourself. I would really appreciate this.The injectors I sent with the kit should be plenty large enough. I had sent these to witchhunter in oregon for overhaul. I'll try to find his report when I get home. You will want to run 1 or 2 step colder spark plugs. The factory plug wires should be fine, just might want to make sure they're in good shape. I'll also measure the pulley that came with the kit when I bought it. I didn't send this to you because there are several dents in the ribs from shoddy packaging when I bought the kit, and I don't think its safe to run.
D. Can I use a Turbo instrument cluster since it has a boost gauge? Or should i just get dedicated gauges and put them in the cubby? What gauges should I get? Once you get the car tuned, you shouldn't need a boost gauge. Because the blower is positive displacement and pulley driven, there is zero chance of an overboost. The only thing a boost gauge will help you with is detecting belt slipage and leaks in connectors. I had mine temporarly mounted in the cubby.
E. Finally what should I look for in a shop and what should I look out for if they are trying to include stuff that doesn't matter. I'm sure when I walk up they will be licking their chops. I think the directions I provided should be enough for the most novice mechanic to get it installed. Maybe invite a couple rennlisters over for a wrenching party. A few pizza's and couple cases of beer are alot cheaper than $90/hr shop rates. With the same tune on the computer and an intercooler, it may run more rich, but should be driveable to a dynoshop to get it tuned.
Good Luck with it.
A. Do you think the stock Turbo intercooler is enough? Or should I spend the extra $600 and get a SFR unit? Seems the 944 3.0 motors are pretty strong and can handle power if they are setup correctly.
B. Can anyone please give me a detailed price and parts list on if I wanted to lower compression via Turbo Pistons. I'm not a gearhead so please be as detailed as possible. I'm trying to learn. I'm thinking the motor would live a lot longer and produce more power. What would be the probability of it running just fine the way it is with intercooling?I think lower compression pistons will be fairly cost prohibitive (check with "Boostfeen" or similar SN, his name is Shawn and is from the Napa area witha 968 turbo), and the best bang for the buck would be a water/ alcohol injection setup.
C. What other things do I need? Plugs, wires, injectors, pulleys, etc, etc. Please list it as a shopping list if you were doing the conversion yourself. I would really appreciate this.The injectors I sent with the kit should be plenty large enough. I had sent these to witchhunter in oregon for overhaul. I'll try to find his report when I get home. You will want to run 1 or 2 step colder spark plugs. The factory plug wires should be fine, just might want to make sure they're in good shape. I'll also measure the pulley that came with the kit when I bought it. I didn't send this to you because there are several dents in the ribs from shoddy packaging when I bought the kit, and I don't think its safe to run.
D. Can I use a Turbo instrument cluster since it has a boost gauge? Or should i just get dedicated gauges and put them in the cubby? What gauges should I get? Once you get the car tuned, you shouldn't need a boost gauge. Because the blower is positive displacement and pulley driven, there is zero chance of an overboost. The only thing a boost gauge will help you with is detecting belt slipage and leaks in connectors. I had mine temporarly mounted in the cubby.
E. Finally what should I look for in a shop and what should I look out for if they are trying to include stuff that doesn't matter. I'm sure when I walk up they will be licking their chops. I think the directions I provided should be enough for the most novice mechanic to get it installed. Maybe invite a couple rennlisters over for a wrenching party. A few pizza's and couple cases of beer are alot cheaper than $90/hr shop rates. With the same tune on the computer and an intercooler, it may run more rich, but should be driveable to a dynoshop to get it tuned.
Good Luck with it.
10-22-2007, 03:48 PM
#15
Drifting
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Oh, I also forgot to mention: When you add the intercooler, you're going to have a pressure drop, so you need to take that into consideration when calculating your new pulley size. BTW, I think 6psi is being very conservative. Once you get it tuned and see where your timing is at under load, you may decide to go for more.