sobamaflyer

First post here but lurker for a while and very long time forums user.

I'm in the process of finding a new toy as I sold my last a couple of years ago and can't seem to stay away from having a car that needs attention. I was a vintage VW guy for quite a long time (Ghia, Type-3 Fastback, a number of Bugs...)and have dabbled in a number of other cars, auto-x'ing, etc so I'm un-phased by maintenance or "project cars". I also have an '06 Nissan Z Roadster, and before that had an '03 Honda S2k. I honestly much preferred the "feel" of my S2k, being more nimble and tossable but not nearly as torquey as the Z. I don't really expect my toy to eclipse the performance of these but I also don't think I'll be happy if it feels like driving my old Type-3 in comparison.

I started researching a couple of months ago intent on fulfilling a 20 year day-dream of getting a SC to a Carrera 911, then I started investigating 944's. Obviously I've come across the fact that I could spend less of my toy-budget (and therefore have more for the unexpected, on a nicer/Turbo 944. It would seem that I could find a "need's some help -> OK" 911 for just a little more initial outlay. (I would like to buy a car for $6k-8k).

Reading through scores of posts here and the other site it would seem that most who own 944's have nothing but problems and a masochistic love for them? . Are they really that self-destructive?

Will I be happy with anything less than the >200hp Turbo model?

Will that add more complications?

Anyone have any arguments for the rougher 911 instead? (I'm more accustomed to tearing apart air-cooled engines so that one doesn't worry me quite so much but I could be crazy )

Thank you for reading this long diatribe and your advice and input is appreciated.

Travis

Auto_Werks 3.6

If you drive the turbo, you will not settle for anything less... and concidering your budget (on the 8k side), there is no reason not to get the turbo. A 944 turbo can be a money pit, but the more you use it, and the better maintained it was before you got it, the better off you'll be. I think they get worse the more they sit. Also no real reason to get a 911 over a 944 turbo... They are COMPLETELY different. Drive them both and see which you prefer. I'm a little bi-polar, and find that I need both. To each his own.

Good Luck... they are both great cars!!

500

944s are not difficult to work on. Some jobs, like the clutch primarily, are more complicated than typical, but it still really is more a matter of time than anything.

944s are fundamentally robust, well-designed cars. Engine blocks typically show very little wear and the bottom end in general is extremely durable. The cylinder heads are fine too, just have to watch out for regular timing belt/rollers service. A good-condition 944 is a very reliable car.

Trouble is, there are not that many truly good condition 944s out there anymore. The low market values make them attractive to purchase, but many hesitate to spend serious coin on maintenance on a car that cost them so little. It is a typical downward spiral. Most of these cars are over 20 years old and if they have just had the bare minimum in maintenance, then a LOT of money will need to be spent replacing stuff that is just plain worn out. If you get a 944 and put the effort and dollars into bringing it up to snuff, you will have a very reliable, well-built, fun-to-drive car. The alternative is to find a well-loved example and pay a premium for it. You are more likely to find turbos and 968s in this category, primarly due to the higher basic market values (i.e. people who brought these cars are more likely to have had the means and inclination to take care of them properly). Of course there are many selling cars out there who feel that their example is in the "premium, well-loved" category, but really aren't. PPIs are real aid here.

A 944 or 944 S is a decent performer, fast in its day, but significanly slower than your Z - its real strength is in the balance/handling realm. A turbo on the other hand will run with the Z quite well in stock trim, and the mod ability is extensive. They do add cost and complexity to the maintenance equation, but I would not hesitate to buy a good one. I drove a nice, stock '86 turbo and it felt more than a match for my WRX. S2s and especially 968s are great performers too, better in the low rpm ranges than turbos, but have limited mod potential if that is your bent.

911 motors are MUCH more complex to work on than the VW air cooled motors. If you look into what professional 911 rebuilds cost, it will amaze you. On the other hand, 944s are relativiely straightforward. They do have unique design features, but nothing too hard to learn. Having said that, I love 911s, but I'd rather wait until I could buy a good example. The costs are a whole other order of magnitude.

Tom R.

The value of a 944 is about zero take or take a few bucks.

The purchase price of a 944 is reflective of recent as in say the last 10k miles 2 years work done to the car.

You can get a 944 for free and in no time have significantly more than you will ever recoup into the car. If given the choice between a 944 with records and a premium price or a fixer upper for cheap, the least expensive alternative is to pay the premium up front.

Yabo

8k is barely cutting it if you want a great reliable maintenance covered example of a 951. At least without watching for deals for a while.

Eric

I just sold my 86 turbo for 8,000.00 That was after it being for sale for over a year and several price drops. It had 113K all records, brand new Yokos, limited slip, Fuchs, no dash cracks, newer Sachs clutch, rod bearings, rebuilt A-Arms, new wheel bearings, Cold AC, master/slave, fuel lines, etc. etc. and an uncracked dash.

8,000 should get you a ready-to-go turbo. The market is pretty soft right now.

sobamaflyer

I don't doubt at all that they are polar opposites, I expect the 911 to be a much better variant of my beloved Ghia, and to be honest it's draw is quite possibly more the draw of filling that dream of the poster I hung on my wall as a 10 y/o of a whale-tailed 930. I'm posting here because more and more reading lends itself to my thinking that the 944 has the balanced handling that I loved about my S2k.

Sadly I now live in S. Alabama (which is a wonderful place to live) but there's not a whole lot of opportunities to test drive different P-cars anywhere near here. Anyone reading care to tell me you are close and willing to let me?

Obviously I posted this in a 944 forum as that is where I'm currently leaning for a few reasons, but as I mentioned before hours and hours of reading tends to seem like folks have nothing but problems and the cars will implode if the timing belt hasn't been changed in <50k miles. Granted I do take some of this with a grain of salt knowing that internet forums have much more "problem traffic" than "accolade traffic".

sobamaflyer

This is what I've seen in recent weeks too, a number of what seemed like VERY nice 951's for $6,500-$8k have gone past my screen. One of the things fueling this debate in my head.

The 944/951 may not have the "cool factor" and instant recognizability of the 911, but the ability to get one that seems very nice with equal to much better (modded) performance for a cheaper price is very enticing.

Thanks for your continued input on my debate

cie_lab

Paid under $7k for my '88 951 last week. Near-mint interior (couple of dash cracks, seat rash). Mechanically well maintained (new belts, water pump). 87k miles.

I too was a VW nut years ago (several bugs, '58 kg, squareback, and...rabbits!)

I also had a hankerin' for a 911. Too rich for what I can do right now.

Never liked rice burners. Too sterile. I much prefer the german styling and I think the 951 hit all the sweet spots.

You're familiar with sporty cars so I don't know how the 951 would feel to you. It's nothing spectacular on city streets.

But...

Get someplace where you can mash it and next thing you know you've just gone to plaid. 3rd gear acceleration is truly amazying. And that's bone stock.

M758

I love my 944 NA race car and I love my 944 Turbo street car.

My 944 race car has require extensive work to build and get running. I bought it with a bad motor/gearbox as POS car for $1200 in 1999. Now it is worth about 9-10k as race car and is very very reliable. I have been racing it since the middle of 2002 and since the middle of 2003 the car has had very few issues.

My 88 Turbo S I got in 1997 with 90k miles on it in very nice condition. It has been a weekend driver and now as 130k on it. Over the years the major work has mostly been a clutch job. I have an oil leak that needs to be fixed, but the car has done well over the years. I plan on keeping it for at least 10 more years if not for much much longer. The performance of the car is just better than anything else out there for it's price. I bought it for 12k and probably can sell it for 9-10k. That is not bad for 10 years of ownership.

sobamaflyer

Lord Helmet it sounds like you and I are birds of a feather (something tells me there's a whole set of people on this board who have no idea what you just indicated there). I'd be interested in hearing more of your thoughts on your new 951, disappointments, thrills, etc.

To all: I've gotten the impression over the last couple of weeks that the 944 will cost just as much to maintain or repair as the 911, is this wrong?

JonH

I always felt that I needed both! The 944 turbo does so much well that I really think you would be happy with a 951 both on the street and the track. To me, owning a 911 was part the '80s poster on the wall car, and part owning the car that defined Porsche and sports cars for so long - it's raw and sounds great! On a side note, you will get more looks in a 911 if your the polo shirt type

streckfu's

The only thing you can do is to buy the best example you can find. There are no gaurantees with cars of this age but a well documented maintenance history and thorough pre-purchase inspection goes along way toward reducing risk.

Doing your own maintenance will save a ton of cash when you do need something done. Before I learned to work on the 951 I owned, I spent about $10k in two years with the majority being labor at an independent Porsche specialist.

I didn't come close to that over the last 3+ years I owned the car. I even did a head gasket change and couple of belt changes which would run you $5k at the dealer.

sobamaflyer

That is a very small check mark on the 911 column (although I hate to admit it). I'm very much not the Polo shirt type, but of course there is a tiny bit of vanity that enters in here. A 911 seems to shout "he does well" whereas a 944 has qualities I am looking for but doesn't billboard the "status". In the end I'd much rather be respected by the set that knows what it can do than the wives at the golf course though.

____________________

I take it from comments here noone thinks I will be satisfied for very long with a NA 944?

sobamaflyer

Moderate wrenching is stress relief for me, 1) I'm not sure we have a qualified older Porsche repair facility in-town and 2) I'd much rather do it myself. Belt, Clutch, Etc changes don't scare me a bit. Electrical gremlins are horrible, but like you said any car of this vintage will have it's own set of issues.