fast951

Great discussion. We developed the 944S2 MAF kit (it was for a friend for his Cab), it was designed to be stealth so it had to be placed where the stock AFM is located.
What do you guys think a MAF kit with good power gain (for a NA) and great response should cost?
$500 or less?
$700 or less?
$1000 or less?
Keep in mind, when a kit is developed there is R&D cost, dyno cost... and finally customer support cost. The cost must be divided over x number of units.
How many of you will actually purchase a kit?

StyleLab

I would gladly pay over $500 for something reliable, no need for stealth. I would however need to see a before and after maf dyno run on the same car in the same session.

Z-man

John,

$500 - $700 for an easy "plug and go" kit that retains most of the original components would be worth it, assuming a 4-5 hp gain with the kit, provided that I match the kit with a freer-flowing exhaust, of course.

Of course the question for you is, can you sell enough of these kits to cover your initial outlay, given that there aren't that many S2's out there, and that number isn't increasing...

-Zoltan.

fast951

We saw power gain in the teens, and we had to work for it.
We plan on doing a second dyno session, we might change the S2 exhaust and use the 951 cat-back. to see what it does.

jgporsche

$700 would be a reasonable cost for a maf, chip, and pigtail harness, and the customer comes up with their own intake plumbing. Maybe offering some piping at extra $$$ so the customer could build their own system.

John,
I'm curious to know, what size MAF was used for the Vitesse S2 MAF? I know you are more focused on the S2 guys, but on the 944S intake tract, the connector hoses are 3.5". I like the Pro-Tube MAFs that are used for the turbos. Is it the same style?

Also, on the subject of 16V N/A performance.... Have you given any more thought of producing the wasted spark for the S/S2/968.... or what about maybe just a regular coil on plug setup?

bleucamaro

Provided this is a hardware solution only (no chip or changed tune), I would expect it to be available for at or under $500 for a quantity between 5 and 10 units. I figure 40 hours engineering @ $25/hr, 3 hours of dyno time @ $125/hr all divided by 5 units is $275. Time and materials for fabrication I'm making a gross generalization, but I figure 4 hours @ $20/hr and another $150 in materials. This would bring the cost to $505 for 5 units, and about $370 for 10 units. This is all asuming you have the necesary equipment to test the outputs of both the AFM and MAF on a bench. I also think the development time is pretty conservative. All that is required is to compare the 2 units output curves and develop an algorythm that sets the MAF output equal to the AFM's, and translate that to electronic components. A good EE should be able to do this in a day. Anyway, add in a modest 15% profit and your 5 units should run just under $600 and the 10 units about $425.

Just my opinion.

fast951

Bleucamaro, the MAF kit comes with software.

What sort of engineering are you involved in and where? for $20-25/hr?

What you describe is a MAF conversion using a signal massager to emulate the AFM signal so the DME understands it. This is not the best approach, it has many limitations.

I guess I got the answer to my earlier question. Thank you all for the feedback.

fast951

Jesse, In the MAF conversion I can use any MAF, as long as I know the calibration. All I have to do is change the transfer function in the chip. The S2 piping is much simpler than the 944S, however if the MAF sits where the AFM is, there is no problem.

We are setting up the WS on one one of our 968 engines. (the same can be used for S2 and 944S). However, we have no plans yet to bring it to market.

StyleLab

how much were you thinking for the whole kit? n/a owners are much more reluctant to spend on this type of thing. Having owned a turbo I don't mind forking out for performance on my S2.

jgporsche

How much interest would be needed for 16V wasted sparks? (how many would need to sell on an initial run?)

jgporsche

I forgot to ask, What changes were made to the chip to gain the power? You are saying power was made in the teens, did you do any other changes other than changing the transfer function? any ignition timing changes? I guess what I am asking, is, was the power that was created, created by performance values in the chip or the AFM to MAF change?

bleucamaro

I set the labor rate low figuring it was a technician at a workbench comparing the two signals, remember I prefaced my post stating, "Provided this is a hardware solution only," none the less should not take a week. Figure a competant engineer would take a full day, maybe 2 at $100/hr, thats $160.

Also, I believe an analog signal massager done via hardware will provide more accurate information to the DME than changing the A->D conversion in the DME, or by changing the individual cells of the tune. The reason for this is it would make further tuning changes more difficult when other modifications are done.

fast951

I disagree with you. A correct transfer function is the only proper way to do the MAF conversion. Having a PB for fine tuning is a good idea as well.

ahsan127

I would pay $500-700 for a plug and play unit without thinking about it twice...especially if it gives a HP gain in the teens.

fast951

As I stated in my earlier post "We developed and tuned on the dyno a MAF kit for the 944S2". SO yes, we did tune it, not just change the transfer function.
A MAF change by itself on the S2 will not yield power gains in the teens.