The DareDevil

One word: Toulene

Dsalillas

I just got back from the shop and asked the owner about the HP numbers he advertised. He told me the numbers in the catalog were printed by the previous owner and were an estimate derived from a computer model. He also told me that the previous owner did have quite a few dyno sheets from other engine builds but they were taken when the shop was sold. The new owner has only been there a couple of months and will no longer use a printed catalog, they'll be going by their new website which they are in the process of building.

Yes, this is Paeco.

He explained to me that the stage four engine is a high RPM race only engine. It can't be driven on the street with pump gas and it is 100% warrantied but for only one race. The other engines are also 100% warrantied for 90 days without racing.

This is a race shop and all their fabricating is done there. He told me people are always calling or e-mailing him for OEM parts or parts that you can get from Autozone or NAPA, which I though was pretty funny.

Their website is Paeco but I was told it was getting rebuilt with all the prices.

Geo

Unless of course you are a racer.

That's better than being a slave to Porsche who will happily charge you your first TWO born.

Serge944

The cost to develop a turbocharged engine with the same capabilities is LESS. It will also be more reliable and simpler.

And your second point is competely false. Thanks.

There's a reason why no one "builds" 944 n/a engines - cost benefit analysis.

special tool

Now.... how did I know that the dog ate the dyno sheet??

Goddaaaamn- I must be ****ing psychic.

Geo

Waste of money if turbocharged engines aren't allowed.

It won't be simpler. And more reliable is debateable. Personally I'd prefer NA for simpler and more reliable. FWIW I've owned both high output NA and massaged factory turbo engines. Turbos are nice, but a well developed NA is really special.

Prove it.

There are a lot of parts that can be had from the aftermarket that are cheaper than factory parts. That's one reason people sleeve blocks and install aftermarket pistons. Cheeper. Have you priced a new factory connecting rod?

You make bold statements as if they are fact when in fact they are purely opinion.

So friggin' what? Anybody and everybody that is building an engine can choose between NA and turbo. Some choose turbo and some choose NA. However, with the 944 crowd the lemmings just believe you cannot do anything because someone has said that and it's been repeated often enough. Most people don't even bother to try. Why I don't know. There are decent cams out there. If you look around you can find decent headers. The reason most headers don't work well on the NA is lack of overlap, but with performance aftermarket cams, that can be corrected.

I still say that with a decent development program a very streetable 944 can be made to make 200 bhp. The problem is, nobody is doing development because the mantra is "buy a 951." IMHO all it would take to make 200 bhp is a good cam, some modest head work, some decent header development, and decent engine management. Whoever blazes the trail will not get there in a hurry, but once it's figured out, it should be easily repeatable for a reasonable price.

Milledge cam: $600
Stahl header: $600 (a custom header would be more but once the design parameters are figured out, they can be mass produced easily for this price or less)
Headwork: $1,000 (a guess)
Engine management: less than $1,000

This is all before going with low mass components that don't add hp, but will reduce rotational inertia, thus feeling like more hp. Things like:

Aluminum flywheel
Underdrive pulleys

It can be done. It just takes someone with a little drive an commitment.

Serge944

Dude, once you finish your 944 supercar - let me know.

Geo

Why?

Besides, I'm not building a supercar. I've never pretended to do so. I'm building a car to very tightly controlled rules.

When you do anything of note automotive-wise, be sure to let us know, OK?

Skunk Workz

Hardly...if it's well built,it should manage about 70 hp at 2200...that should make it idle quite well. Stock NA performance at 4600 (160 hp )... 230+ at 5800...and 300+ at 7000-> ....then it's just a matter of how far you dare to rev it.

And CR....if you make a race engine to run C16 24/7,and want big power,I guess you'd run loooong cams...and use a seemingly too-high CR to lift the effective compression and make some power/driveability at low rpms too,right..? Peak power alone does nothing.

Geo

The bigger issue with idle is the lumpiness of the idle. The cam is going to need to be very aggressive and the ports rather large to make 334 bhp. That will make idling a challenge. Perhaps you're right though, it might idle at 2200. Still not in the range of what most people are willing to live with on the street which is what the discussion about idle was all about.

This is a race engine we're talking about. You're not going to get any sort of power or driveability at low rpm. Peak power it great on a race car if the power band is at least 1500 rpm wide, preferably 2k rpm. I'll take a lot of power with a 2k rpm powerband any day. Generally I expect my car to spend most of its time on the track at 4500-7000 rpm and more like 4500-6500 in general.

BTW, if you could get 334 bhp with a broader powerband I would bow down. I don't think it's possible.

special tool

Me neither.

We 944 guys want to believe that these cars are capable of big things (and they are), but nobody wants to do and prove it (except a few of us )
This is why we have so many fraudulant meatballs trying to sell us stupid, useless ****.

eohrnberger

An interesting thread.

I've always had doubts about the position that there was nothing to be done to a 944 NA engine to enhance it's performance and yet maintain its decent street manners. The way that I look at it is this:

Porsche is an OEM with specific goals and restrictions for the cars that it produces. One of these goals was that the 944 should not exceed the performance of the higher priced and higher profit margin 911 and 928, which makes perfect sense from their point of view (remember, they are in it to make money, just like any other business). Another would be to minimize the number of large cost warranty claims even with the tolerance variances in the typical manufacturing process. The more variances that need to be accommodated, the greater reduction in engine performance to stress the engine less.

This is also my guess as to why domestics typically have these huge displacements with little forthcoming performance, and yet run forever without an oil change. Huge displacements with little performance equals an unstressed engine that will run forever. IMHO.

For some time now, I've been watching and considering what could be done with my S2 to increase the torque and HP while maintaining it's street manners (smooth idle, premium pump gas, reliability, longevity, etc). For awhile I've been thinking that the only way to get a bit more out of the engine would be some form of forced induction. Granted it would be limited PSI boost as the engine is already at 10.9:1 (without new engine innards) , but I would imagine something as low as 6 to 8 PSI boost would still have a real gain in HP and torque, hopefully across the entire RPM range.

Now with this information, I can see that perhaps I don't need to go with the forced induction route, but it would still take new engine innards.

The wisdom of the rennlisters has been, "get a 951", which is true, if you want to extract maximum performance at minimum cost (yes, there is a trade off curve there pending on what cost containment goals and what performance goals you have). The same is the case with the NA engine, except that it looks like we have all another $3K or more to do it.

My goal? All I want to do is not get spanked by a Pontiac Grand Prix GTP (super charged 3.8L V6) off of the line, and have a reliable, dependable and decent longevity. My feeling is that it is beneath a Porsche to have that happen. So the real question is: "How to get an S2 that added performance without breaking the bank?" (I still have kids to put through college). Therein lies the challenge, as it always does: budget.

While I'm not in a rush to do this at this moment, my engine should be good for another 100K miles or so if I take good care of it, but at some point in the future, I will have to freshen it up due to it's miles. It's at this point where I figure that I'll be in a position, freshening up the engine, where I could do some things to spark up the performance at bit.

d_roedel

GEO --- as you say no one is pulling the trigger on a perf rebiuld, I am and most parts already purchased. I crashed my 89 (2.7L) and am biulding that motor up before it goes into my new 86.
already have milledge cam, head will get the works, dont know who's header yet, custom intake (make a short runner manifold out of a turbo one) and MAF from danno to top it off.

i am planning on finishing the motor and have it in the car by january. hopefully with dyno sheets.

i am really looking forward to the motor because the 223k mile motor on the 86 seems tired, or maybe ive just been driving the 2.7 for too long.

d_roedel

also, bottom end will get all the works, and cr bumped up

Skunk Workz

Barely idling at 2200? No offense,but what are you running? Old Holley carbs from the breaker's..? I've seen Supra setups running as low as 3 In HG idle intake vacuum due to cams/ports tuned to 8000 rpm running quite smoothly at 1200 - 1400 rpm...the numbers I mentioned would produce around 12 In. Hg. intake vacuum at idle...which means that that engine's idle would might sound a little rough,but idling at 1200rpm would not be much of a problem. That is,unless you make the ports huge,then the powerband would just die. So would your idling quality....