Timing question with Pics Now with UPDATE
10-30-2005, 03:37 PM
#1
Racer
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Portland Oregon
Posts: 382
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Timing question with Pics Now with UPDATE
OK, well for anyone who knows that I stripped my t-belt tensioner a few months back:
I have ordered a remanufactured head from Ian at 944online, along with the gasket kit and other assorted parts to do a head up repair. I have gotten close to completion, but I am a little paranoid when it comes to just Trusting the timing marks on the Cam and on the engine. I mean I know I am probably at TDC, but having turned the engine over by hand (with the marks all at TDC and the belt on to be "safe") I am still experiencing harder turns. IE: it starts out easy to turn then it gets harder, than easy again. I have the plugs out, so there is no compression build up, even though it seems like it.
My question is:
Is this the tension of the valve springs as the cam moves and pushes them down?
If I were "hitting" piston to valve, it should be real hard and maybe even impossible to turn by hand, right?
If it is the cam/valve pressure and is normal, shouldn’t it be hard the whole time?
Any help here would be great. I am not an idiot, but I have never done this on a 944 before so I am a little unsure.
Here are a couple of pics showing before and after. Before on bottom and after on top. Sory about the quality..
[IMG]old1[/IMG]
[IMG]mine1[/IMG]
[IMG]old2[/IMG]
[IMG]mine2[/IMG]
I have ordered a remanufactured head from Ian at 944online, along with the gasket kit and other assorted parts to do a head up repair. I have gotten close to completion, but I am a little paranoid when it comes to just Trusting the timing marks on the Cam and on the engine. I mean I know I am probably at TDC, but having turned the engine over by hand (with the marks all at TDC and the belt on to be "safe") I am still experiencing harder turns. IE: it starts out easy to turn then it gets harder, than easy again. I have the plugs out, so there is no compression build up, even though it seems like it.
My question is:
Is this the tension of the valve springs as the cam moves and pushes them down?
If I were "hitting" piston to valve, it should be real hard and maybe even impossible to turn by hand, right?
If it is the cam/valve pressure and is normal, shouldn’t it be hard the whole time?
Any help here would be great. I am not an idiot, but I have never done this on a 944 before so I am a little unsure.
Here are a couple of pics showing before and after. Before on bottom and after on top. Sory about the quality..
[IMG]old1[/IMG]
[IMG]mine1[/IMG]
[IMG]old2[/IMG]
[IMG]mine2[/IMG]
Last edited by my84-944; 11-03-2005 at 09:09 PM.
10-30-2005, 04:32 PM
#2
Race Car
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Costa Mesa, California
Posts: 3,781
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There is considerable resistance in the valve springs.
Aligning the timing marks then tensioning the belt you will notice that being off a tooth will show up big.
Always turn the engine over by hand clock wise (standing at the front of the car/engine). You can back up the engine a few teeth when checking the T-belt tension.
Aligning the timing marks then tensioning the belt you will notice that being off a tooth will show up big.
Always turn the engine over by hand clock wise (standing at the front of the car/engine). You can back up the engine a few teeth when checking the T-belt tension.
10-30-2005, 05:05 PM
#3
Racer
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Portland Oregon
Posts: 382
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by SoCal Driver
Aligning the timing marks then tensioning the belt you will notice that being off a tooth will show up big.
I am not sure what you mean by show up big though.
Do you mean because the cam turns 2 times to the crank?
10-30-2005, 06:51 PM
#6
Racer
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Portland Oregon
Posts: 382
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
top flywheel line lines up and cam notch lines up too. What should the top flywheel TDC mark look like? Mine is a line. Are there two lines on the flywheel for the 1984 2.5L NA, one for the bottom mark and one for toe top?
If so are there any way to tell one from the other?
HELP. Now I am really confused.
If so are there any way to tell one from the other?
HELP. Now I am really confused.
10-30-2005, 07:11 PM
#7
Make sure the spark plugs are out when you turn it by hand. Also, I always determine TDC by putting a long dowl (or screwdriver) into the #1 cylinder. I crank it clockwise and stop just as the screwdriver stops rising (it may take a couple tries to be sure).
I seriously doubt you would be able to turn it if you made contact with the valves. I think you were experiencing resistance from the compression. As you turn the engine with the plugs in, you will notice 4 distinct areas in the rotation where you meet heavy resistance before getting easy again. This is a result of compression as each piston comes to TDC.
Hope this helps a little.
I find www.clarks-garage.com to be the best source of maintenance help.
I seriously doubt you would be able to turn it if you made contact with the valves. I think you were experiencing resistance from the compression. As you turn the engine with the plugs in, you will notice 4 distinct areas in the rotation where you meet heavy resistance before getting easy again. This is a result of compression as each piston comes to TDC.
Hope this helps a little.
I find www.clarks-garage.com to be the best source of maintenance help.
Trending Topics
10-30-2005, 07:45 PM
#8
Racer
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Portland Oregon
Posts: 382
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yes and thank you streckfu's951.
I can tell you that there is resistance with the plugs out too, at least on my car. I have yet to put any in at all and this is all happening with no plugs in at all. This is why I am a little worried. I think this may be the valve springs just pushing back as I turn the crank. Now if I am at TDC would this be a constant pressure or would it be the distinct ones you spoke about?
Now for that no 1 piston thing:
Is the the one to the front of the car.
Front of car
----------------------------------
....................... 0 (this is piston no.1 right?)
........................0
intake side........0 Exhaust side
........................0
---------------------------------
Back of car
If so than I should be ok as I used the same trick with the dowel, I used a long plastic straw, on the first piston towards the front of the car.I then checked the TOP of the engine and saw the line in the window, which is supposed to confirm TDC. The cam is also lined up with it's mark so I was going to assume it was all good, but the resistance is bothering me. This is a brand new (remanufactured) head so I know it should all be fine, but what the hell I am a little paranoid.
Let me know, because if anyone can F this up by being on the no.2 or 3 or 4 piston I will.
It could also be that I am making too much out of a little resistance, but you know the old saying about measure twice and cut once...
I can tell you that there is resistance with the plugs out too, at least on my car. I have yet to put any in at all and this is all happening with no plugs in at all. This is why I am a little worried. I think this may be the valve springs just pushing back as I turn the crank. Now if I am at TDC would this be a constant pressure or would it be the distinct ones you spoke about?
Now for that no 1 piston thing:
Is the the one to the front of the car.
Front of car
----------------------------------
....................... 0 (this is piston no.1 right?)
........................0
intake side........0 Exhaust side
........................0
---------------------------------
Back of car
If so than I should be ok as I used the same trick with the dowel, I used a long plastic straw, on the first piston towards the front of the car.I then checked the TOP of the engine and saw the line in the window, which is supposed to confirm TDC. The cam is also lined up with it's mark so I was going to assume it was all good, but the resistance is bothering me. This is a brand new (remanufactured) head so I know it should all be fine, but what the hell I am a little paranoid.
Let me know, because if anyone can F this up by being on the no.2 or 3 or 4 piston I will.
It could also be that I am making too much out of a little resistance, but you know the old saying about measure twice and cut once...
10-30-2005, 09:15 PM
#9
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Hey;
Resistance is from the springs, quite possibly more so if some of the components are new or freshly machined and do not have a smooth wear pattern yet. #1 is the front cylinder. Do the dowel thing to make yourself feel better. I do!
Actually, I make sure it is at TDC when the head is off, when it's easiest. If the flywheel (VERY thin line) and cam marks are lined up, and your dowl stops rising there, you're set. Slap her together and gitter dun!
Resistance is from the springs, quite possibly more so if some of the components are new or freshly machined and do not have a smooth wear pattern yet. #1 is the front cylinder. Do the dowel thing to make yourself feel better. I do!
Actually, I make sure it is at TDC when the head is off, when it's easiest. If the flywheel (VERY thin line) and cam marks are lined up, and your dowl stops rising there, you're set. Slap her together and gitter dun!
10-30-2005, 09:25 PM
#10
Burning Brakes
TDC at crankshaft
score line on top of flywheel aligned with casting tab - view through opening in bellhousing - along with score line on bott. of flywheel aligned with notch at bottom of bellhousing. if these two are viewed simultaneously, crank is a TDC. sometimes the score lines on the flywheel are faint - look closely.
TDC at camshaft.
when you put the cam cover back on, lifter on cylinder 1 ( as well as no. 3, i believe) should have been pressed IN, with cam gear set to TDC timing mark. I'm not sure how else to be 100% sure of TDC at cam other than slowly turning by hand to feel for contact.
good luck.
score line on top of flywheel aligned with casting tab - view through opening in bellhousing - along with score line on bott. of flywheel aligned with notch at bottom of bellhousing. if these two are viewed simultaneously, crank is a TDC. sometimes the score lines on the flywheel are faint - look closely.
TDC at camshaft.
when you put the cam cover back on, lifter on cylinder 1 ( as well as no. 3, i believe) should have been pressed IN, with cam gear set to TDC timing mark. I'm not sure how else to be 100% sure of TDC at cam other than slowly turning by hand to feel for contact.
good luck.
10-30-2005, 09:48 PM
#11
Racer
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Portland Oregon
Posts: 382
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks guys. It looks like I should be right on then. I will try not to let my paranoia spoil what could be a beautiful moment with my baby. If all goes well there will be one more 944 on the road this week. 
I will of course check the marks like 10 more times. BTW I thought that the on on top of the engine was the only one for the crankshaft,(not including the CAM) as my book only said to check that one. The other mark is just there in case the engine is out of the car right?
Anyway looks like this will be ok..I hope.
Thanks for all the input..
I will of course check the marks like 10 more times. BTW I thought that the on on top of the engine was the only one for the crankshaft,(not including the CAM) as my book only said to check that one. The other mark is just there in case the engine is out of the car right?
Anyway looks like this will be ok..I hope.
Thanks for all the input..
11-03-2005, 06:59 PM
#12
Racer
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Portland Oregon
Posts: 382
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well after checking like 50 times, going from the top mark to the cam mark and then setting the belt, then checking again with the straw in the spark plug hole, THE DAMN THING STARTED. 
I do not mean turned over like 20 times then finally fired up, I mean she turned over three and BAM, she fired up almost immediately. It is like nothing has even happened, except for the smoke from the headers, burning off the mess I made when I put the Cam tower back on. I have yet to put the belt covers on as I am not 100% sure about the tension yet, but that should come this weekend. I did notice a weird sound from the belt area, which sounds like a rub, but not a metal on metal sound. It fades out when the rpm goes up, and is intermediate, kind of a whump, whump, whimp sound. I am quite frankly a little worried, but even if it is a roller making the sound, I am hoping it is just a tension issue. I did the 90 degree turn test, so I think I am close. If you all have any thought on this sound I would be interested.
I want to thank everyone here on the list as I do not think this would have been possible with out your input. To all of those that helped with information and input, my hat is off to you and you will always have my gratitude.
Now that this ordeal is nearing the end, and I see light at the end of my recent financial drain, I may be able to finally get the Rennlist Membership taken care of.
I do not mean turned over like 20 times then finally fired up, I mean she turned over three and BAM, she fired up almost immediately. It is like nothing has even happened, except for the smoke from the headers, burning off the mess I made when I put the Cam tower back on. I have yet to put the belt covers on as I am not 100% sure about the tension yet, but that should come this weekend. I did notice a weird sound from the belt area, which sounds like a rub, but not a metal on metal sound. It fades out when the rpm goes up, and is intermediate, kind of a whump, whump, whimp sound. I am quite frankly a little worried, but even if it is a roller making the sound, I am hoping it is just a tension issue. I did the 90 degree turn test, so I think I am close. If you all have any thought on this sound I would be interested.
I want to thank everyone here on the list as I do not think this would have been possible with out your input. To all of those that helped with information and input, my hat is off to you and you will always have my gratitude.
Now that this ordeal is nearing the end, and I see light at the end of my recent financial drain, I may be able to finally get the Rennlist Membership taken care of.