ehall

Tim: Boring to 111mm is not a good idea, it will not last long. Sleeved blocks bore out to 112mm before installing sleeves (look for Chris Whites posts on MID Sleeves). Hosram
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What are you talking about. lol
The MID sleeves replace the cylinders altogether. The max they go, as Chris developed and currently provides, is 106mm. That would be applied to a 3.0 block. He does 104 and 106. You could do 106 with a 3.0 crank, and your in the 3.2 range. Any bigger, hell that big, is silly. You'll have all you can handle not contiually blowing a head gasket on the 3.2 without EXPERT tuning. The MID's would help because of the decking, but you still have some pretty crazy A/F and EGT management to take care of.

Then go find cv's that you won't have to change every time you forget, and jump on it, to to turn left from the median.

renvagn

contact RS barn at 215-968-2599. Great source for 968 turbo and 951 cup car information. ask for Pete.
Hope this helps

Robby

does anyone here know the full width of the cylinders? I thought the full width was just under 12mm on 951 & slightly less (maybe 10mm) on 968...? If this is hte case, then, there's no way one could bore to 112 b/c that would take out the whole wall.... I'm not an expert- that's why i'm asking... i'm just going by things I've read here, before...

ehall

Robby you are right. Be careful what you believe from what you read here. I've spent the better part of 18 months planning a 3.0 project. If you wantr a really good explanation you should check out clarks garage. Look in the shop manual under performance modifications. There is a very informative section on over boring and stroking engines, as well as size specs. Happy reading.
BTW the ;argest all bore that I've seen run successfully, for ANY period of time is David Floyds 2.7 ktr. Thats bored to 108 and sleeved back to 106mm.

One of the benefits of the new MID sleeves is that they replace the cylinders altogether AND are individually replaceable. Chris White at 944enhancement is one of the guys to ask. Additionally Scott Gomes at Under Pressure, Powerhaus in Az. and Broadfoot racing come to mind as experrts in sleeving. Check out their sites, and email if you would like even more info. Albert Broadfoot , both built and raced a 3.2 turbo and the car is on his website.

Robby

ehall- Yes, I've spoken w/all of those guys at one time or other... Broadfoot was one of the last- he doesn't return calls or e-mails though, so, I've given up, despite the fact that they do give tons of customer info... Gomes has not given me any, at this point, which is my only complaint about him- otherwise, he is very forthcoming w/incredible amounts of information- this is cool... I've never actually gotten customer info from Milledge, but, I do know of several who have engines by him & have heard incredible stories of his customer support that goes beyond anything I've ever heard of. But, of course, he's so far out of my league, it's not even funny...

I spoke w/Chris White right now a few weeks ago- I did not know anything about those MIDS completely replacing the cylinders though...? I'm completely lost there... You don't mean they replace the walls & everything do you...?

Garrity Repta SEEMED to know a lot- so did John Anderson... It REALLY scares me... Broadfoot never seems to get back to you & I got an odd feeling w.them on the phone & w/the two e-mails they actually did reply to- as if I were wasting their time... I've NEVER gotten this feeling from Gomes- possibly the best at providing detailed advice I'm aware of- I'd just like to hear from a few people who have his engines in their cars & specifically STREET engines. Cervelli was one I trusted too... Danno seems to know a ton, but, I think he's too busy to do the work...

Yes, David Floyd's is the only one I've seen too, that's lasted the test of time, BUT, he HAS had some probs w/it... BTW- his should be 2.8L w/106mm bore, not 2.7...?

Do you know anything about the 94mm Broadfoot cranks? I used to think stroking (3.0L crank) was the ONLY way to go... Danno sent me a long e-mail w/a TON of benefits on using bore OVER stroke... unfortunately, we need the longer stroke more... But, w/his arguments, bore is REALLY a good idea... I'll never stroke now though... too much money... I'm too frustrated w/the car as/is... Before I'd stroke, I think I'd just get a 3.0L engine & turbo it, but, don't have the requisit minimum $15K on hand so that'l never happen...

I MIGHT go w/MID's for whatever max is... 104mm? 106mm? I just hate having anyone machine my block, so, I'm not even positive I'll do that... might just try to rebuild & bolt-on... therein lies the other question... my mechanic tells me not to do this... to find a lower mileage engine & throw it in... I just don't get it... I know it would be a lot cheaper, BUT, if you already have the damn thing out, you're halfway there by the time you get it back in... THEN, you just have another used engine in that will eventually need rebuilding &w/15yrs internals, etc...

I need to stop thinking about it... I can only deal w/it a few minutes at a time anymore... At this rate, it wont matter, b/c it will never get done & I'll end up in something else & then feel horrible for all the time, effort & money I've wasted on it thus far- it's things like my suspension fiasco that makes me want to drive it off a bridge & brings me to this state... I'm determined not to get screwed again even if I do just find a lower mileage engine w/K27#8, port-matched manifold (already have head), weld about two more mufflers on to quieten the loud-*** thing down, wastegate mods, EBC, chips, & be done w/it... I'm not even doing a MAF... Not worth the money... Then, it's on to repainting the whole car- then, suspension- Koni DBL adj front & rear 275lb fronts w/28mm T-bars (hollow- yeah right... who can find them?) & no helpers ever again & 968M030 sways- then sell the 951M030's. Hmmmm... another $4k in the interior & I'll only need a good $20k to get the car done... I'm in $30k now & still need all this...

David Floyd

I had problems because the original builder installed the #2 rings upside down, after replacing the rings myself, I have had no problems at all. (knock on wood)

The sleeving itself has never caused me problems.

2.785 ltr is my actual displacement

Robby

....that's right David.... I guess that doesn't count... It just seems like these projects are almost destined to have something go wrong, but, the stroker's never seemed to have the probs as often... Maybe it's b/c they are a more tried & true method...? Might be easier to forget things when working in more unchartered territory? I don't know... I just know that Garrity's 3.0L (104 bore) of Rob Langelys went through either 4 or 5 total HG's in less than 10 months or so... They have a few theories on that one too... My big gripe is that your's is the only one that's been around awhile... I mean, when it comes down to it, 250HP blows the HELL out of 200000HP if the 250HP is reliable & the other is not.... How many miles have you put on your's now? I ask b/c I'd really like to see a few of these stand the reliabilty test... Mine, being a street car, has to last at LEAST 150k w/out rebuild... I mean, at LEAST....! Would LOVE to see your's one of these days...

yes, 2785cc's rounds to 2.8L though.... 2.749, now, that's a dif story... kind of like the 4.9L Mustangs that were called 5.0L GT's... they were 4942cc... Marketing hype, but, it's close enough I guess...

hosrom_951

You need to bore to 114mm from the factory cylinder before you install the sleeves, see it for yourself:





https://rennlist.com/forums/944-turbo-and-turbo-s-forum/183454-big-bore-951-a.html

Note: I also see you have a favour of spelling my name as Mr. Kiwi, get it right and stop you're moody replies, or just don't say anything at all

Robby

Hos- so how thick are the walls? I mean, eventually, you will bore over into the other cylinder... there's no way around it... I had just read the 11mm # a long time ago... of course, hmmm.... if the wall is 11mm thick b/t cylinders, then, going into that 4mm would really be increasing 8mm total diameter... Never really thought about it that way... At any rate, is this pic before or AFTER boring? If before, I have to say, those walls look relatively thin, but, if after, then... Are those sleeves, or, is there a passage in the block that surrounds the cylinders? hmmmm..... I have no idea... just quoting what I've read & trying to learn....

David Floyd

[QUOTE=RobbyHow many miles have you put on your's now? I ask b/c I'd really like to see a few of these stand the reliabilty test... Mine, being a street car, has to last at LEAST 150k w/out rebuild... I mean, at LEAST....! Would LOVE to see your's one of these days...
...[/QUOTE]

12k miles on upside down rings and another 15k with correct ring install, driven daily

Robby

...so.... which way do you like better....? But seriously.... that's pretty cool... 27K total... that's not bad at all... it's only been 2yrs or so now, right...? That's what I want... reliabilty... Nice pics...

hosrom_951

Robby: That pic shows how thick the walls are AFTER boring, look at some of Chris White's thread to see the finished sleeved installed.

ehall

Hosram when you use MID sleeves for an over bored engine, you completely replace the cylinders. You are wrong. I'm not sure what part of removing the cylinders was unclear, but you can feel free to PM Chris White if you have a problem.
I couldn't give a crap less about your problems with Andrew, nor your fragile ego. I made a tecnical post pointing out that you are wrong. The process used with MID sleeves is completely different. If you post misinformation, I or someone else should correct it. Why you chose to take this OT I don't know, but I don't appreciate it. Get back on topic.

Robby

Ok.... yeah, I was having some computer probs, so, couldn't get through that link before, but, did just now... does anyone have a pic of the cylinder BEFORE boring... bone stock...for comparison....?

ehall

Robby,
I didn't mention that guy because he's usually beyond anyones budget. Broadfoot makes outstanding engines, as does Scott Gomes. One of the other guys, I believe, was responsible for the aforementioned upside down rings. Garrity Repta, Broadfoot, almost all of those guys are unique type people, and can be difficult as craftsmen often are.
Chris is an equally talented builder, and very easy to deal with. He's going to be doing my rebuild, as soon as i can blow up my current engine.
The MID sleeves have been used for quite a while in other makes of cars. They are especially popular in drag racing circles. There are more than a few stories of those guys pulling a single sleeve, and piston, then replacing them at the track.
That's the key. The block and girdle are machined to accept the sleeves, which then lock into the block on the top and the bottom. They literally replace the stock cylinders, that's why the info about the actual cylinder thickness, pre-sleeve, is meaningless. If you should have a problem you can replace one sleeve and one, far less expensive JE piston.
Further, because of the integrated deck, the cylinders aren't free standing as they are in a stock block. For a turbo app. that creates a great deal more stability under high boost pressures. That will give much more head gasket reliability, (a big issue with our cars).
I agree with you about dropping in a used engine. What's the point. I'd rather keep the devil that I know, then risk dealing with the one that I don't.
As for Broadfoot's cranks, he doesn't do anything that any other good builder/machinist can't do. He's adding material by welding, then hardening, followed by machining. I don't really have any thoughts on them, except to say that I wouldn't want to add anything to an existing crank. I would personally prefer to pay the money for an authentic 3.0 crank,and go from there.
Keep in mind that sleeving is going to run 3k+ once built and balanced, without any special crank work. After that you have to address making the car breathe. That gets expensive really fast. As was said before, this is a 10k propositon, even if you do it yourself, IF you do it right.

You know the old saying
How fast do you want to go? How much money have you got?

pm if you want, and I'll help you put a plan together, send you in the right direction etc. I've done easily over 200 hours of planning on this.
Make your own plan, and stick to it. Start with what you want out of your car.

Cheers E.

Here are pics of the MID's installed.