Litespeeds

Hello everyone. I just recently purchased a 1988 944 and will be using it on the track and maybe even going into the Spec 944 class. I am wondering what is the cheapest route to go with suspension without changing the rear torsion bars? I have heard that upgrading to some factory 944 Turbo front and rear swaybars would definitely help but what should I do about my springs and shocks so everything will kind of balance out? Or should I just suck it up and purchase a raceready suspension kit from Paragon with the 30mm torsion bars? Please help. Thanks in advance.

Dave in Chicago

You stand at the edge of one of the most slippery slopes known to man...

Just a little change $, a little more $$, full out $$$...

There is no one answer to this question Litespeeds. One can pick a budget point and track to that, but it's a compromise. I do not know the specs/rules that apply to 944 spec class. If that is your ultimate goal, then you may wish to talk to folks running in it and build to spec.

This, I DO know... The best $ for $ investments in suspension for me were as follows:

1) A good semi-track alignment (these cars have a LOT of capability right out of the box)
2) M030 sway bars - direct bolt-on cornering improvement (car will rotate much better too)
3) Koni Yellows in place of the tired original shocks/struts - some adjustability thrown in for good measure - I would get the adjustable perches from Paragon, it's a smart play for very few extra $$
4) Better tires - either a DOT race tire that you can drive on the street (Toyo RA-1's and the like) or the best max-perf summer tires you can find
5) Upgraded torsion bar + upgraded front spring rate addition - not a lot of $$, but the labor is high to do this one
6) Spherical bearing/solid bushings - there is a LOT of rubber in the 944 suspension, none of it is really needed - too much deflection in the chassis
7) Skip the Koni's and such and leap right into you choice of full coil-over adjustable shocks with commensurate spring settings
8) Tighten the whole thing up with a nice weld-in cage - It makes a big difference in stiffness, really.

All of the above assumes the car is in good operating condition and one is not fighting with worn parts or other "correctable" issues.

There's a bunch on this in the archives, but hopefully this is good initial food for thought.

RedlineMan

Hey;

Dave has got you pretty well covered. I might quibble with some details, but his advice is solid.

My advice would be that if you just purchased it, the cheapest thing to do is NOTHING. Assuming what you have is in decent order, you need not do a thing. You are starting at the bottom rung as a driver (I assume), and so you need nothing more than the car itself to start the learning process. If you maintain the car's ability in keeping with your own, you will learn much faster and much better how to drive swiftly, AND save a lot of money to boot!

Driving a car to a point very close to its current potential before making changes is the fastest way to learn well. It is the guys that don't know this that learn the slowest!

GlenL

I've got two words: friends and eBay.

Serious racers will be casting off lighter weight swaybars, struts, shocks and springs.

I dropped an email to our local PCA email list and several guys generously offered great stuff. Here's the economy set-up I put together with about $350 and good will:

Fronts:
200lb/in springs
Used turbo struts
26.8mm sway bar
Brake cooling baffles
7x16 928S4 wheels

Rears:
23.5mm torsion bars, (stock, no change)
Koni sport shocks (set +1)
18mm sway bar
Solid torsion bar links
8x16 928S4 wheels

My struts were shot and the turbos were not. They also have the mount for brake baffles.

The car handles great and is still streetable. A HUGE improvement over the prior equipment with no rear swaybar not to mention those struts were shot.

This stuff is all pretty easy to put on as well. Those torsion bars are a PITA from all accounts.

Do search the archives and web. This is a very popular topic.

joseph mitro

"expensive" is a relative term, and to set it up competitively is not going to be cheap. follow the advice above and search the forum. this has been discussed extensively.

use search terms like "suspension," "coilover," "torsion bars," "springs," etc. there are good threads in the 924/944/951/968 forums as well as the racing/DE forum and the 944 turbo forum.

mroberts

I would make SURE you have everything else in good condition first. Your first track tech inspection may uncover things that you NEED to fix, and your first track weekend may show up a few more things.

The last thing you want to do is blow all your cash on suyspension, then disocver you need to do $1000 in other repairs to be able to use it.

M758

Litespeed...
What are you? (Major City?)

944 spec was designed from the groud-up as low cost 944 racing class. The empahsis is on keeping the cars cheap yet fast. 944-spec is primarily Az and California as a racing class however a car prepped to that level will be pretty cheap and realativly quick.

There are 3 ways to beef up the suspension.

1) Fresh shocks Koni Yellow $500-600... Stock springs & t-bars, Stock sway bars. STRIP The interior. 225/50 tires on 15x7 or 15x8 wheels.
Pros... Cheapest solution and really best bang for the buck. The lightweight car will make the stock suspension feel stiffer and the car will be alot more tossable. Also money spent for shocks will be a step to futher suspension work.
Cons... Still soft and rather tall ride height.

2) Pull interior new shocks stiffer springs and sway bars.
Pros... stiffer than option 1
Cons... Costs more and you will get left over parts you may not need IE... stuff that maybe replaced later.

3) Full boat 944-spec suspension. Runs abot $2k for shocks. sway bars, t-bars and camber places. you can go with delrin or poly suspenison bushings. Metal are not legel for 944-spec and very expensive. Labor is such that you can install all your self and the car will be fast and responsive.
Cost is bit more up front and it can be difficult to learn to drive the car since it is SO repsonsive.


I would suggest Option 1 and drive the car for while then save money for the full boat suspension. You can however get sway bars sperate from the sping combo. What I mean is you can so the following

Strip it and drive it.

Add shocks and drive it more

Add springs (front and rear) and drive it

Add sway bars and be done

I built my 944 slowly over 2 year by first stripping and then adding suspensions as I went along.
I did waste money and time on 250lbs springs and 28 mm t-bars before I got my currnet 350's and 30's. That was about 400 and 3-4 days labor down the drain.

I also ran for awhile with 250's and stock t-bars... It SUCKED... I have a routine to sway t-bars properly. It is not that hard a job.

Litespeeds

Thanks for the information guys. I am currently running a 1992 Acura NSX that has some suspension mods and I really enjoy taking her to the local track like Thunderhill and Laguna Seca but of course the thought of ever losing her due to a stupid mistake at the track is always in the back of my mind. I guess that is a good thing because it keeps me from pushing myself beyond my limits. Parts for the NSX is quite expensive and just upgrading to a big brake kit for the front and larger rotors for the rear runs around $4,500 so I figured I would pick up a 944 and set this up as a track car but occassionally drive it to and from work.
I have a good friend that went all out and set his car up to exact Spec 944 and of course he does not drive it on the streets. I don't really want to buy a trailer to tow a car around and would rather drive it to and from the track. If I ever do race 944 Spec class, I will have to install a full cage roll bar and at that time, I will probably go all out.
I know a 944 is definitely a capable car for the track and parts are rather cheap in comparison to some other vehicles. I just don't know if I want to go all out 1st and then regret it if I don't get into spec racing class. At the same time I know I don't want to waste my money on labor by installing a suspension and then later taking it back out to upgrade it.
Bottom line is: What is the firmest street livable suspension setup that I can do without changing my rear torsion bars out? I have heard if I go with Koni yellow shocks and swaybars from a 944 turbo that it would be a good place to start but with this setup, how would I lower the car? I can buy the adjustable spring perch for the front suspension to lower the car but how about the rear? In Spec Racing, they do not allow adjustable coilover for the rear.
I also want to make sure I keep the car balanced so the handling is neutral. If I use too stiff of a spring in the front, the rear without changing the torsion bars will be too soft. The more I think about it, I think it is inevitable that I will probably end up buying the full spec racing suspension from Paragon and suck up the $1000+ labor cost to install everything including the 30mm rear torsion bars. Do you guys agree?

joseph mitro

hey litespeeds, i'm right there with you. i take my M3 to the track, but the 944 is less a loss if i lose it, so i understand your desire for a "cheaper" car to track.

i also have the quandary of modifying the suspension with the thought of someday racing, therefore i want the mods to be race-legal, but in reality that day will probably never come or i'll have a different car by then.

i think the advice by mroberts is excellent, and i think M758s stepwise approach to modifying the suspension is also sound advice. consider starting with bigger sway bars since they are cheap and easy, and install new shocks and good alignment since that will make the biggest initial difference.

Skip Wolfe

I'm speaking from experience with a turbo vs a NA and the Turbos tend to run higher spring rates so take it for what its worth. The question of what is the highest tolerable is very dependent on individual tastes. I run 400# springs with 29 mm tbars and full spherical bearings and think its fine for the occasional jaunt to work or to the store. Most seem to agree that 250# springs are the highest you can go with the stock bars, but I doubt you would be happy with it - too much of a compromise. You can try throwing the 968 M030 19 mm sway bar in the rear to balance out the high front spring rate but once again this is a big bandaide solution and IMHO you would not be happy with it on the track.

The rear spring plate has an ride height eccentric that can be used to lower it a bit.

Diagram of spring plate and adjustment:
http://website.lineone.net/~dmsims/9...adjustrear.gif

Full article that this is from - pretty good article on suspension prep from Jim Pasha of Excellence:
http://website.lineone.net/~dmsims/9...reparation.htm

Yep I agree - the best and in the long run by far the cheapest is to do it right the first time. I would go ahead and do the full monty right of the bat. As long as this isn't your daily driver, it will be fine as far as being streetable

M758

Litespeed,
I ran for time with 250's and stock rear t-bar. It was not very good since the car had too much understeer. If you mess with sway bars you can balance it, but it will be a compromize.

I ran for time with 250's and 28 mm t-bar. Worked good, but a bit soft. I put 350's in front and to get a balance maxed the rear welt sway bar to full stiff. Worked pretty good and won bunch of races like that. However it was not great. I swapped the 28's for 30's and the car was alot better as I could soften the rear bar and get more traction. Well worth it.

Who is the 944 spec guy you know? I know of at least 2 may be 3 folks with spec cars in the Nor Cal area.

M758

Well you can't go that stiff on the street and not mess with t-bars. Simply the car will handle very poorly. You can get about 1/2 of rear lowering without messing with the t-bars after that you will need to index the t-bars. You would need to do that if you put in coilover's too. Indexing the bars and replacing them are the same work. Solid bars run about $300 a set for any rate up to the 944-spec max of 30 mm. 944-spec does not allow coil overs since they cost 3x the price of t-bars and really require the same work or more to install.

Koni yellows you'd want to get new. 944 Turbos and 944 NA's use the same shocks. At least the aftermarket replacements are the same. Turbo sway bars are ok and will firm things up a bit. They are not quite up to 944-spec racing however. You'd want 968 M030 bars or welt sway bars. You could get these for stock suspension car too, but these suckers can easily be too much for the soft springs and create some non-optimal handling. The car may be fine, but not quite perfect. I use welt sway bars since I can adjust them to get the fine tuned balance I prefer in the car.

Litespeeds

I guess if I am going to do it, I will just have to suck it up and spend about $3K into the parts and labor and have it done right the 1st time. I know the driver is the biggest factor on the track but definitely a well tuned car will help.

I am actually going to Thunderhill with the Lotus Club this Tuesday and will have the opportunity to drive my friend Ken's Spec 944 #89 and see how it compares to my NSX. I just hope I have as much fun driving the 944 as I do with the NSX.

Litespeeds

Hey M758,
I noticed you have a 944 Spec for the race track and a 944 autocrosser. How much difference is the suspension setup between the 2 cars? I was considering trying out some auto crossing in the near future. What's your experience?
I am sure it is probably a pretty big difference since you have one car designated for each purpose.

M758

I know Ken, (a least i do through the boards) seems like a nice guy! I am the 944 spec webmaster and go by 944-spec#94 on the nasaforums.


Anyway... The difference between my stock 83 and my 944-spec is someways night and day.

The 83 has fresh shocks, but runs at stock weight and with stock springs and has the optional rear sway bar.

It pitches and leans like you would not believe. The response is slow and you can get sea sick driving it at autocross. That said it is wonderfully balacned and a hoot to drive. I love to pitch the car in corner and manage the slide all the way round. I have be able to make the car one of the fastest street tire cars at our PCA autocrosses. Once I just got comfortable will all the body roll I could really have fun with it.


my 944-spec on the other hand is hard and stiff. In autocross where my 83 will be dragging the front spoiler my spec car will not even lean a tiny bit. You think about making the car turn and turns. If you are not careful it can go from grip to slip faster you can say oh.. sh..t! That said it as very well balacned and can danced at the limits. Frankly on the track is somewhat soft for full up race car, but that only when you are pushing super hard. Of course the 944-spec is faster.

Really the level of body roll in stock suspesion full weight car maybe too much for your liking. It will be a ton more than your NSX and may be disconcerting at first. I know it and expect it and drive the car differently from my 944-spec. For me I would much rather have a car balanced and soft rather than stiffer with understeer. I can mange the body roll, but the understeer simply gets me pissed off. I could have modded the 83's suspension ,but decided not for simple fun of it. Plus this car was supposed to be just a "parts car" anyway. Well now it is a little too good for just parts. I have been using also to teach my wife autocrossing and it is street legal and my spec car is not. Simpler to drive the car to an autocross rather than the big production of getting the trailered car ready for the 4-5 min of track time at an autocross.

The stock car is really better for folks new to performance driving. Reason is that because it leans so much the driver gets more feeling from the car. The 944 spec does not lean very much and it is hard to feel how much side load you are putting in the car. This makes the car a little more difficult to drive. Once you learn it the stiffer car is really nice, but not really good for a green novice.

I hope this helps.

PS.. there are some threads in the racing area were TD in DC posts his experience with is 944 NA. It is prepare similar to a 944-spec car and he got it as track car to replace his 996. He got the low hp car specifially to learn on and seems to really like it. He has found it much more responsive than his street 996. This maybe a nice comparison to your NSX.