“Of Rennlist, Sponsors and Community – OH MY!”
07-24-2005, 10:41 AM
#1
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“Of Rennlist, Sponsors and Community – OH MY!”
I apologize for my delayed reply to the recent threads about Iceshark, Rennlist is now a business, it has sacrificed “community” for money, IceShark (Dan) provides a great service to the community – but frankly, I’m amazed. And I was delaying my reply so that I didn’t flame anyone. Well – that didn’t work – so here goes….
Let me share with you “my side”. You’ve heard the rest and all the various opinions…
Let’s see… IceShark (Dan) registers on Rennlist – when was it? Let me look… That would be June 2, 2001 – about the same day I opened the UBB based Forums – or about 4 years ago…. I’m pretty certain that over those 4 years or so – and nearly 5000 posts, Dan probably heard mention of my name – or maybe saw a post or two from me, in other words, he probably knew a little of Rennlist and what Jen and I have poured into it each and every day. Well, recently after 4 years, Dan decides to become a “Member” after posting up a “group buy”.
Now a couple of things…. First – a “group buy” typically is a Rennlist User or Member that wants to find the best price from a vendor for a “widget” and pass the savings on to other Rennlisters. They e-mail me, and let me know who they are, the product, the supplier and then post up their Group Buy, and I typically say “Thanks – go for it”. Well – Dan’s “group buy” is a Rennlister who posts it up January 17 – becomes a Member months later when things start to take off – and can’t be bothered to even PM me to say “Hey John, do you mind..?”
Rather – what’s posted is some folks are offended as Dan is only providing a “service” to the 944/951 community. Great! So let’s look at this “service” thing, shall we – as I’m quite certain that I’m in a position to make some obvious comparisons, as Jen and I work our asses off in paying jobs to provide this “Rennlist Service” each and every day – and have done so since 1998. So – here’s the deal. Dan – why don’t your provide the same “service” Jen and I do to 250,000 site visitors a day? Offer your products, support, service free to anyone. Those that see the value will support your efforts and become a paying “IceShark Customer”. Those that don’t see the value – well, tough – still provide your “service” to them, as you are providing your “product” for all enthusiasts worldwide….
Now – as well – I must congratulate you as well, Dan. In your group buy – if my math is correct – you actually surpassed in gross revenue in a few short weeks for “your product” than Rennlist accounts for almost a full year in “Rennlist Memberships” which, as you can see above – we are the ones who provided the “service” so you could sell your “products”! You are most welcome for that.
But let’s look further at this Sponsorship thingy you noted I demand $1500 for your sponsorship? Where? It is $125 a month – 3 months minimum. I’m fairly certain I’m right – as I actually wrote that post. In other words – it’s slightly more than one of your kits. But let’s say you actually scraped together the whopping $125 by eating lettuce sandwiches for a month – so you are now a Rennlist Sponsor. During that month, while eating your lettuce sandwich, you hop on Rennlist and start reading threads as a “Sponsor”, which the $125 “bought you”. And during perusing Rennlist - you stumble onto a “group buy” such as yours – offered by a new Rennlist Member for their own product. Now you, as a Sponsor who is forced to eat lettuce sandwiches to afford Sponsorship – you’d be scratching your head thinking “WTF! I had to pay to promote MY products on Rennlist – WTF am I paying for? Apparently – anyone can sell anything they want – and I don’t have to eat lettuce sandwiches after all – and I sure as hell don’t have to pay my whopping $125 a month!”
Well guess what? Now you know EXACTLY how Rennlist paying Sponsors feel when they see your post….
And oh – let’s talk about Rennlist being the big business for a moment. Oh yea – it’s huge. With the paid staff, corporate headquarters and lofty expense accounts – it’s really amazing. The “paid staff” is Jen and I. Jen gets a paycheck from her job – in Real Estate – not Rennlist. I get a paycheck from my real jobs – both are full time and neither are “Rennlist”. Rennlist, is in fact – Jen’s second job and my third job – which we work nights, on our day off from our other jobs. For that – our biggest job demand from Rennlist is being sure we are here at “Corporate Headquarters” each day in time to meet the Brinks Truck – so we can shovel all the cash into the back of the truck. Can you believe that?
Well – I’d write more – but frankly – I have to get to work (yes, one of my jobs – I work both Saturday & Sunday through the day and evening). You see – one of my jobs is 40-45 hours a week for a tremendous salary of EXACTLY $10.10 per hour which I work at a retail outlet. But, honestly – I don’t mind the low salary, as that job does have some perks, including dental and medical benefits. You see– with all the money Rennlist rakes in – since starting this “service” and corporate conglomerate back in the late 90’s – Rennlist sure couldn’t afford – and still can’t afford – medical and dental benefits for either Jen or myself. Of course – it can’t afford to pay us a real “salary” either, but I’m certain Rennlist is a huge business. But rather than bitch and moan about it – I got off my *** – took a 3rd job where benefits are included. And oh – I don’t mind the salary either.
In fact, given my lofty salary of $10.10 per hour (gross) at that same retail outlet – when one of the Rennlist servers went “**** up” a few weeks ago (you can read about it here: https://rennlist.com/forums/993-forum/212811-rennlist-email-server-help-admin.html) my NET paycheck of a combined three weeks allowed me to buy another system (yep – it was just over $1000, and I NET about $361.00 each week from that job). Now – Rennlist could have paid for it, should have paid for it – if I didn’t have to use the funds from that month on circuit changes and details like electricity, software upgrades, stickers for Rennlist Members, etc. – you know – little stuff that keeps this corporate giant “afloat”.
Now I’m definitely going to be late for work. I’ll check into this thread when I get home from work. Maybe I’ll be in a better mood – but I doubt it.
And oh – if you are one of the buyers of Dan’s kits – at the end of the install, raise a frosty cold one to yourself, Rennlist Members, other Sponsors and Jen. For without them – Rennlist wouldn’t be on-line, so there wouldn’t have been a group buy, and Dan wouldn’t have been able to post his product, and you probably wouldn’t have bought one. So congratulations – you deserve it.
John D.
(And Dan – a simple “thank you” would probably go a long way. It’s not really expected, but really – it would be a nice touch.)
Let me share with you “my side”. You’ve heard the rest and all the various opinions…
Let’s see… IceShark (Dan) registers on Rennlist – when was it? Let me look… That would be June 2, 2001 – about the same day I opened the UBB based Forums – or about 4 years ago…. I’m pretty certain that over those 4 years or so – and nearly 5000 posts, Dan probably heard mention of my name – or maybe saw a post or two from me, in other words, he probably knew a little of Rennlist and what Jen and I have poured into it each and every day. Well, recently after 4 years, Dan decides to become a “Member” after posting up a “group buy”.
Now a couple of things…. First – a “group buy” typically is a Rennlist User or Member that wants to find the best price from a vendor for a “widget” and pass the savings on to other Rennlisters. They e-mail me, and let me know who they are, the product, the supplier and then post up their Group Buy, and I typically say “Thanks – go for it”. Well – Dan’s “group buy” is a Rennlister who posts it up January 17 – becomes a Member months later when things start to take off – and can’t be bothered to even PM me to say “Hey John, do you mind..?”
Rather – what’s posted is some folks are offended as Dan is only providing a “service” to the 944/951 community. Great! So let’s look at this “service” thing, shall we – as I’m quite certain that I’m in a position to make some obvious comparisons, as Jen and I work our asses off in paying jobs to provide this “Rennlist Service” each and every day – and have done so since 1998. So – here’s the deal. Dan – why don’t your provide the same “service” Jen and I do to 250,000 site visitors a day? Offer your products, support, service free to anyone. Those that see the value will support your efforts and become a paying “IceShark Customer”. Those that don’t see the value – well, tough – still provide your “service” to them, as you are providing your “product” for all enthusiasts worldwide….
Now – as well – I must congratulate you as well, Dan. In your group buy – if my math is correct – you actually surpassed in gross revenue in a few short weeks for “your product” than Rennlist accounts for almost a full year in “Rennlist Memberships” which, as you can see above – we are the ones who provided the “service” so you could sell your “products”! You are most welcome for that.
But let’s look further at this Sponsorship thingy you noted I demand $1500 for your sponsorship? Where? It is $125 a month – 3 months minimum. I’m fairly certain I’m right – as I actually wrote that post. In other words – it’s slightly more than one of your kits. But let’s say you actually scraped together the whopping $125 by eating lettuce sandwiches for a month – so you are now a Rennlist Sponsor. During that month, while eating your lettuce sandwich, you hop on Rennlist and start reading threads as a “Sponsor”, which the $125 “bought you”. And during perusing Rennlist - you stumble onto a “group buy” such as yours – offered by a new Rennlist Member for their own product. Now you, as a Sponsor who is forced to eat lettuce sandwiches to afford Sponsorship – you’d be scratching your head thinking “WTF! I had to pay to promote MY products on Rennlist – WTF am I paying for? Apparently – anyone can sell anything they want – and I don’t have to eat lettuce sandwiches after all – and I sure as hell don’t have to pay my whopping $125 a month!”
Well guess what? Now you know EXACTLY how Rennlist paying Sponsors feel when they see your post….
And oh – let’s talk about Rennlist being the big business for a moment. Oh yea – it’s huge. With the paid staff, corporate headquarters and lofty expense accounts – it’s really amazing. The “paid staff” is Jen and I. Jen gets a paycheck from her job – in Real Estate – not Rennlist. I get a paycheck from my real jobs – both are full time and neither are “Rennlist”. Rennlist, is in fact – Jen’s second job and my third job – which we work nights, on our day off from our other jobs. For that – our biggest job demand from Rennlist is being sure we are here at “Corporate Headquarters” each day in time to meet the Brinks Truck – so we can shovel all the cash into the back of the truck. Can you believe that?
Well – I’d write more – but frankly – I have to get to work (yes, one of my jobs – I work both Saturday & Sunday through the day and evening). You see – one of my jobs is 40-45 hours a week for a tremendous salary of EXACTLY $10.10 per hour which I work at a retail outlet. But, honestly – I don’t mind the low salary, as that job does have some perks, including dental and medical benefits. You see– with all the money Rennlist rakes in – since starting this “service” and corporate conglomerate back in the late 90’s – Rennlist sure couldn’t afford – and still can’t afford – medical and dental benefits for either Jen or myself. Of course – it can’t afford to pay us a real “salary” either, but I’m certain Rennlist is a huge business. But rather than bitch and moan about it – I got off my *** – took a 3rd job where benefits are included. And oh – I don’t mind the salary either.
In fact, given my lofty salary of $10.10 per hour (gross) at that same retail outlet – when one of the Rennlist servers went “**** up” a few weeks ago (you can read about it here: https://rennlist.com/forums/993-forum/212811-rennlist-email-server-help-admin.html) my NET paycheck of a combined three weeks allowed me to buy another system (yep – it was just over $1000, and I NET about $361.00 each week from that job). Now – Rennlist could have paid for it, should have paid for it – if I didn’t have to use the funds from that month on circuit changes and details like electricity, software upgrades, stickers for Rennlist Members, etc. – you know – little stuff that keeps this corporate giant “afloat”.
Now I’m definitely going to be late for work. I’ll check into this thread when I get home from work. Maybe I’ll be in a better mood – but I doubt it.
And oh – if you are one of the buyers of Dan’s kits – at the end of the install, raise a frosty cold one to yourself, Rennlist Members, other Sponsors and Jen. For without them – Rennlist wouldn’t be on-line, so there wouldn’t have been a group buy, and Dan wouldn’t have been able to post his product, and you probably wouldn’t have bought one. So congratulations – you deserve it.
John D.
(And Dan – a simple “thank you” would probably go a long way. It’s not really expected, but really – it would be a nice touch.)
07-24-2005, 11:04 AM
#3
Rennlist Member
You gotta do what you gotta do i guess... we appreciate what you do to have this list, it's unfortunate some technicalities must exist, but you have to protect yourself.
BTW - it's early, and i'm not quite grasping.. are you implying that anyone who bought from iceshark through rennlist was doing a disservice to rennlist personally??
BTW - it's early, and i'm not quite grasping.. are you implying that anyone who bought from iceshark through rennlist was doing a disservice to rennlist personally??
07-24-2005, 11:28 AM
#4
John, thanks for keeping this place up but I have to ask if this was the only way this could have been handled.
At issue, I think, is that the rules are not always applied to everyone. Now, if this is the beginning of that, fine. It seems though that this case comes from the bitching from other sponsors. Well, no problem, as soon as one of them is able to offer a similar product I would be 100% in agreement. They cant...so how does it impact them? Frankly, if some of the sponsors here offered products and service like Dan they may not need to advertise here at all.
My only question is, "Was this the ONLY outcome that you and Dan could work out?"
Not trying to be a pain but it seems that somehow the two of you could have worked out something better.
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At issue, I think, is that the rules are not always applied to everyone. Now, if this is the beginning of that, fine. It seems though that this case comes from the bitching from other sponsors. Well, no problem, as soon as one of them is able to offer a similar product I would be 100% in agreement. They cant...so how does it impact them? Frankly, if some of the sponsors here offered products and service like Dan they may not need to advertise here at all.
My only question is, "Was this the ONLY outcome that you and Dan could work out?"
Not trying to be a pain but it seems that somehow the two of you could have worked out something better.
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07-24-2005, 11:45 AM
#5
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I want to thank you for keeping this site up and running... i have profited from this site parting one car and now a second. A lot of what is sold is to other rennlisters and that is only possable WITh a rennlist-THANK YOU
07-24-2005, 11:45 AM
#6
Hey Matt, I see your point but from all teh stuff i read last night it seems to me that Dan hasn't cantacted John, If i understand some of it correctly, he didnt ask to post, I also believe there just wasnt enough contact between the two, but that makes a little sence now that i have read John's post, he was probably at work... The really sad thing is I am currently p-car less and have been for a while, I am going to be looking in about a year and of course one of the Upgrades i wanted was one of the infamous headlight kits.
Mark
And Thank You John I do appreciate Rennlist!!!
Mark
And Thank You John I do appreciate Rennlist!!!
07-24-2005, 11:49 AM
#7
Mark, I understand but Dan has put those kits up here for the last 2 years, at least, and it wasnt a problem until a few weeks ago. Surely, in the last YEARS they have had some communication. If not then shame on Dan and John. If it is an ongoing problem for the past 24+ months then someone should have closed the thread the day it was posted not weeks after.
Maybe a better outcome would have been: This is the last time, I will not allow you to post your sales items again, with a public notation to that point. That would seem to have been more fair to Dan and the entire group of people who have given him money. Does that make sense?
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Maybe a better outcome would have been: This is the last time, I will not allow you to post your sales items again, with a public notation to that point. That would seem to have been more fair to Dan and the entire group of people who have given him money. Does that make sense?
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07-24-2005, 11:50 AM
#8
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Thanks Jen and John would your "big business" 
here I would have never been able to drive one of these cars as most of my time is spent reading post about useful information.
Devon I think what he means is that you have to be a paying sponsor to offer a group buy. So by Dan doing this rennlist (our hobby) is loosing money because why would they need to sponsor rennlist if they can do group buys without it. It's basically you have 100 people have to pay to say get there dental work done why 2 get it free why would the others want to pay.
here I would have never been able to drive one of these cars as most of my time is spent reading post about useful information. Devon I think what he means is that you have to be a paying sponsor to offer a group buy. So by Dan doing this rennlist (our hobby) is loosing money because why would they need to sponsor rennlist if they can do group buys without it. It's basically you have 100 people have to pay to say get there dental work done why 2 get it free why would the others want to pay.
07-24-2005, 12:05 PM
#9
Rennlist Member
I understand that part, i just didn't understand the last part about anyone who bought one of iceshark kits drink a beer for rennlist and whatever was around there.
07-24-2005, 12:13 PM
#10
Matt again I agree, but JD and Jenn reopened the thread with just that intention, that this was going to be the last time, and that thread was to help bring the buy to a close, again I agree with you I am very unhappy that it ended up like this, like i said above I would love to get a kit for my future car but it looks like that wont be possible.
Mark
Mark
07-24-2005, 12:24 PM
#11
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Thanks John,
Personally I do not see any difference between Iceshark having to pay a Rennlist sponsorhip and passing that cost increase along to his cusomers, and Iceshark having to pay more for components due to a weak dollar and passing that cost increase along to his customers. Selling a product through this medium used to be free, now it's not. Costs have gone up, prices go up. It's just life.
Does Iceshark earn the money he makes off his kits? Sure! Does John D. earn the money he makes off of Rennlist? Sure! Do either of them make piles of money? Probably not. No 997's in their avatars yet.
From what I read, hundreds of these kits get sold. Why shouldn't seven or eight bucks from each kit go to support the site? 2-3% of the cost of a kit to support the advertising medium? That's dirt cheap. Furthermore, if indeed Dan makes these kits to support the community, why the heck shouldn't some of the money go to support this site (which supports the community more than these kits do) and I would bet you that less than 50% of Dan's customers are Rennlist members. The site benefits them, they get access to a great product like these, and a few percent of the money is too much to go back to keeping the site alive?
-Joel.
Personally I do not see any difference between Iceshark having to pay a Rennlist sponsorhip and passing that cost increase along to his cusomers, and Iceshark having to pay more for components due to a weak dollar and passing that cost increase along to his customers. Selling a product through this medium used to be free, now it's not. Costs have gone up, prices go up. It's just life.
Does Iceshark earn the money he makes off his kits? Sure! Does John D. earn the money he makes off of Rennlist? Sure! Do either of them make piles of money? Probably not. No 997's in their avatars yet.
From what I read, hundreds of these kits get sold. Why shouldn't seven or eight bucks from each kit go to support the site? 2-3% of the cost of a kit to support the advertising medium? That's dirt cheap. Furthermore, if indeed Dan makes these kits to support the community, why the heck shouldn't some of the money go to support this site (which supports the community more than these kits do) and I would bet you that less than 50% of Dan's customers are Rennlist members. The site benefits them, they get access to a great product like these, and a few percent of the money is too much to go back to keeping the site alive?
-Joel.
07-24-2005, 12:29 PM
#12
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Hi Matt,
Let me see if I can help take a crack at clarifying this issue with IceShark. The point is that John and I have not had any contact from IceShark concerning his “service” or this “group buy.” Also, IceShark has been around long enough to know how to contact John or myself and what is acceptable conduct on the forums.
From our viewpoint, this all could have been avoided by IceShark who should have shown a level of professional courtesy by asking us if “it would be okay” or “hey I have this idea for a widget that I think the 924/944 forum could use” etc. We certainly have worked with numerous other small companies or one person operations to help them out so that they can get their product on Rennlist without being in clear violation of the Charter or putting at risk other sponsor positions on Rennlist. Unfortunately, we were not extended a professional courtesy.
The only contact that we received was when the thread was pulled. We; however, reopened the thread as a professional courtesy to IceShark so that he could close out existing orders. But come to find out he wasn’t closing the thread out, but taking on new orders.
-Jennifer
Let me see if I can help take a crack at clarifying this issue with IceShark. The point is that John and I have not had any contact from IceShark concerning his “service” or this “group buy.” Also, IceShark has been around long enough to know how to contact John or myself and what is acceptable conduct on the forums.
From our viewpoint, this all could have been avoided by IceShark who should have shown a level of professional courtesy by asking us if “it would be okay” or “hey I have this idea for a widget that I think the 924/944 forum could use” etc. We certainly have worked with numerous other small companies or one person operations to help them out so that they can get their product on Rennlist without being in clear violation of the Charter or putting at risk other sponsor positions on Rennlist. Unfortunately, we were not extended a professional courtesy.
The only contact that we received was when the thread was pulled. We; however, reopened the thread as a professional courtesy to IceShark so that he could close out existing orders. But come to find out he wasn’t closing the thread out, but taking on new orders.
-Jennifer
07-24-2005, 12:36 PM
#13
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John D.
I can understand your position on this issue. I can see the hurt from the other side. It always takes two to tango. I don't believe for a minute, that this situation can't be worked out. Lines in the sand must be drawn at some point.....agreed. Because it has gone on for over four years, doesn't mean that there should be "expected" rights. Nothing lasts, or stays the same forever.......change is INEVITABLE.
I appreciate all you and Jenn have done here! I respect your position.
I also like Dan, and like having him around here. I hope things can work out satisfactorly, pride can be put aside, whats right and appropriate for the good of all prevails.
I have faith in this "community".
I can understand your position on this issue. I can see the hurt from the other side. It always takes two to tango. I don't believe for a minute, that this situation can't be worked out. Lines in the sand must be drawn at some point.....agreed. Because it has gone on for over four years, doesn't mean that there should be "expected" rights. Nothing lasts, or stays the same forever.......change is INEVITABLE.
I appreciate all you and Jenn have done here! I respect your position.
I also like Dan, and like having him around here. I hope things can work out satisfactorly, pride can be put aside, whats right and appropriate for the good of all prevails.
I have faith in this "community".
07-24-2005, 12:47 PM
#14
Jenn, thanks for the response. I think it is important that we are able to have communication about issues like this without getting angry or upset.
I have a question about your first paragraph, since it goes directly to my point. In all the time Dan has sold these kits why didnt anyone communicate this with him before? As a "vendor" some of his responsibility is to play within the rules. However, as the "keeper of the rules" it is the job of the site admin to communicate as well. In my mind, neither party is 100% right or wrong.
I like to tell young managers that you cannot take action unless you have told the person what you expect. It seems (and I do not know since I am certainly no more privy to the communication that any other lister) that if 2 years ago someone had simply told Dan, "this is the way it is" that all of this could have been avoided.
The problem lies in the occasional enforcement of the rules. What makes this GB for his kit any different than the one last year? Does that make sense? If, as a group, we are saying we will no longer tolerate this period, there might have been a better way to do it.
For the record, I understand the reasoning. There are rules and as users/members we ALL have to play by the rules.
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I have a question about your first paragraph, since it goes directly to my point. In all the time Dan has sold these kits why didnt anyone communicate this with him before? As a "vendor" some of his responsibility is to play within the rules. However, as the "keeper of the rules" it is the job of the site admin to communicate as well. In my mind, neither party is 100% right or wrong.
I like to tell young managers that you cannot take action unless you have told the person what you expect. It seems (and I do not know since I am certainly no more privy to the communication that any other lister) that if 2 years ago someone had simply told Dan, "this is the way it is" that all of this could have been avoided.
The problem lies in the occasional enforcement of the rules. What makes this GB for his kit any different than the one last year? Does that make sense? If, as a group, we are saying we will no longer tolerate this period, there might have been a better way to do it.
For the record, I understand the reasoning. There are rules and as users/members we ALL have to play by the rules.
Originally Posted by Jenn
Hi Matt,
Let me see if I can help take a crack at clarifying this issue with IceShark. The point is that John and I have not had any contact from IceShark concerning his “service” or this “group buy.” Also, IceShark has been around long enough to know how to contact John or myself and what is acceptable conduct on the forums.
From our viewpoint, this all could have been avoided by IceShark who should have shown a level of professional courtesy by asking us if “it would be okay” or “hey I have this idea for a widget that I think the 924/944 forum could use” etc. We certainly have worked with numerous other small companies or one person operations to help them out so that they can get their product on Rennlist without being in clear violation of the Charter or putting at risk other sponsor positions on Rennlist. Unfortunately, we were not extended a professional courtesy.
The only contact that we received was when the thread was pulled. We; however, reopened the thread as a professional courtesy to IceShark so that he could close out existing orders. But come to find out he wasn’t closing the thread out, but taking on new orders.
-Jennifer
Let me see if I can help take a crack at clarifying this issue with IceShark. The point is that John and I have not had any contact from IceShark concerning his “service” or this “group buy.” Also, IceShark has been around long enough to know how to contact John or myself and what is acceptable conduct on the forums.
From our viewpoint, this all could have been avoided by IceShark who should have shown a level of professional courtesy by asking us if “it would be okay” or “hey I have this idea for a widget that I think the 924/944 forum could use” etc. We certainly have worked with numerous other small companies or one person operations to help them out so that they can get their product on Rennlist without being in clear violation of the Charter or putting at risk other sponsor positions on Rennlist. Unfortunately, we were not extended a professional courtesy.
The only contact that we received was when the thread was pulled. We; however, reopened the thread as a professional courtesy to IceShark so that he could close out existing orders. But come to find out he wasn’t closing the thread out, but taking on new orders.
-Jennifer
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07-24-2005, 12:50 PM
#15
Thanks to John and Jen!
I have been watching the fights over the past few weeks regarding the "nature" of Rennlist and the propriety of the actions of specific moderators and John and Jen themselves. Some of the discussion leads me to believe that the "openness of the Internet" makes people forget what is really going on here.
There is no such thing as a "right to free speech" on a private BB. The First Amendment was created by the US constitution to protect the rights of citizens in PUBLIC places. Moreover, it limits the actions of Governments, not of private individuals. As such, if you are standing on a public street, you have the right to say what you want and the government cannot stop you (of course there are many exceptions, but that is not the point here). However, if you go into someone's private house, your "First Amendment Rights" do not entitle you to say or do whatever you want. If you come to my house, and you say something I do not like (even if I am being unreasonable by an objective standard), I will ask you to stop saying it or leave.
I view Rennlist as if it were John and Jen's living room. They have graciously invited us into their house so we can talk about our common passion -- Porsches. They ask for donations -- membership and sponsorship -- but they will still let you in even if you are cheap enough to enter someone's house without bringing beer, wine or food (e.g., defraying the costs of the party).
If you do voluntarily contribute, they will even let you into the family room to argue about politics, UFOs, who has the best a$$ or whatever other nonesense you wish. The hosts of the party get to set the rules, period. If you break the rules, the hosts of the party have the right to say "straighten up or get out of my house."
Most people come to the party and have a great time. Some spout a bunch of BS, but when does that not happen at a party? Some are very entertaining, and others are total know-it-all bores, but even they are tolerable because you can learn a lot from a bore.
Sometimes, an argument breaks out between two or more "guests" or a non-contributing guest breaks house rules by trying to sell without contributing. In an effort to keep order and keep the party rolling, the host -- or the host's bouncers aka the moderators -- decides who to kick out, but they usually do so only temporarily. Would you have done the same if you were the host? Maybe, maybe not, but the point is that YOU DID NOT HOST THE PARTY.
If you don't like what the host did, leave and start your own party. However, it seems a little ridiculous to claim that, since you brought a six-pack or bag of Doritos to the party, you have a right to remain at the party and tell the Host what a dolt they are for kicking out X but not Y, or even to complain about how the party isn't as much fun anymore. I cannot imagine anyone doing that at a real party, but it seems to go on here all the time.
In short, it is John's and Jen's party, and they can cry if they want to (or in this case kick out one side and not the other). Don't like it? Pull the host over to the side and whisper POLITELY that he or she might not have kicked out the right person (e.g., send a PM), but don't go around the room shouting about the unfairness of the host's actions (e.g., complaining vociferously in public posts).
If we all just acted like we were guests in John and Jen's house, I doubt that we would have as many silly spats (although they can be pretty amusing
). The same goes for moderators. I may not like the bouncers the host hired (for so much pay I might add), but the hosts, and not me, paid.
End of rant. For the sake of clarity, this rant is not aimed at anyone in particular. Rather, I have been thinking about this for some time, and now seemed like an appropriate time to share my thoughts. For what it's worth, I would feel exactly the same way if John and Jen were wealthier than Trump.
TD in DC aka just another bore at the party (but at least I brought beer and try not to fight too much in John and Jen's living room)
I have been watching the fights over the past few weeks regarding the "nature" of Rennlist and the propriety of the actions of specific moderators and John and Jen themselves. Some of the discussion leads me to believe that the "openness of the Internet" makes people forget what is really going on here.
There is no such thing as a "right to free speech" on a private BB. The First Amendment was created by the US constitution to protect the rights of citizens in PUBLIC places. Moreover, it limits the actions of Governments, not of private individuals. As such, if you are standing on a public street, you have the right to say what you want and the government cannot stop you (of course there are many exceptions, but that is not the point here). However, if you go into someone's private house, your "First Amendment Rights" do not entitle you to say or do whatever you want. If you come to my house, and you say something I do not like (even if I am being unreasonable by an objective standard), I will ask you to stop saying it or leave.
I view Rennlist as if it were John and Jen's living room. They have graciously invited us into their house so we can talk about our common passion -- Porsches. They ask for donations -- membership and sponsorship -- but they will still let you in even if you are cheap enough to enter someone's house without bringing beer, wine or food (e.g., defraying the costs of the party).
If you do voluntarily contribute, they will even let you into the family room to argue about politics, UFOs, who has the best a$$ or whatever other nonesense you wish. The hosts of the party get to set the rules, period. If you break the rules, the hosts of the party have the right to say "straighten up or get out of my house."
Most people come to the party and have a great time. Some spout a bunch of BS, but when does that not happen at a party? Some are very entertaining, and others are total know-it-all bores, but even they are tolerable because you can learn a lot from a bore.
Sometimes, an argument breaks out between two or more "guests" or a non-contributing guest breaks house rules by trying to sell without contributing. In an effort to keep order and keep the party rolling, the host -- or the host's bouncers aka the moderators -- decides who to kick out, but they usually do so only temporarily. Would you have done the same if you were the host? Maybe, maybe not, but the point is that YOU DID NOT HOST THE PARTY.
If you don't like what the host did, leave and start your own party. However, it seems a little ridiculous to claim that, since you brought a six-pack or bag of Doritos to the party, you have a right to remain at the party and tell the Host what a dolt they are for kicking out X but not Y, or even to complain about how the party isn't as much fun anymore. I cannot imagine anyone doing that at a real party, but it seems to go on here all the time.
In short, it is John's and Jen's party, and they can cry if they want to (or in this case kick out one side and not the other). Don't like it? Pull the host over to the side and whisper POLITELY that he or she might not have kicked out the right person (e.g., send a PM), but don't go around the room shouting about the unfairness of the host's actions (e.g., complaining vociferously in public posts).
If we all just acted like we were guests in John and Jen's house, I doubt that we would have as many silly spats (although they can be pretty amusing
). The same goes for moderators. I may not like the bouncers the host hired (for so much pay I might add), but the hosts, and not me, paid. End of rant. For the sake of clarity, this rant is not aimed at anyone in particular. Rather, I have been thinking about this for some time, and now seemed like an appropriate time to share my thoughts. For what it's worth, I would feel exactly the same way if John and Jen were wealthier than Trump.
TD in DC aka just another bore at the party (but at least I brought beer and try not to fight too much in John and Jen's living room)