“Of Rennlist, Sponsors and Community – OH MY!”
07-24-2005, 07:19 PM
#46
Nordschleife Master
Originally Posted by DanG
That wasn't the point I was trying to make Matt. I didn't read the thread.
But every time it popped up I was like "why does this thread need to be here?" I don't understand why that discussion needed to be carried out infront of everyone. Carry it out in email or pm's or the seller's website/own forums.
But every time it popped up I was like "why does this thread need to be here?" I don't understand why that discussion needed to be carried out infront of everyone. Carry it out in email or pm's or the seller's website/own forums.
As far as the thread popping up so much in the end, it was an easy way to keep people informed. This current build started here and has been going on for 6 months. You don't understand, people move or change email service. It is hard to keep track of them and Rennlist was an easy way. They sent me money so I want to give them what they wanted. But if you don't know where they are, that is sort of hard.
07-24-2005, 08:21 PM
#47
Pro
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Reno, NV
Posts: 509
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I really hope all this can be resolved peacefully through open communication. Forum dramas are really retarded. 
If you read past here, please read the post with an open-mind because the content might cause strong feelings with some of you. 
I was an "almost" buyer of one of Dan's kits, and anyone who thinks he is making money off the Iceshark "group buy" is seriously deluded. I work in the mfg industry and $275.00 for a much lesser scale harness is just plain average. He uses the best of everything for parts and does the work in his spare time. I can't even believe it was suggested that he is paying himself $375/hr. He doesn't do enough qty to outsource his labor to china!
I'm wondering how all this recently came to a head as I was under the impression that Dan and other non-sponsors have been having small informal group buys on the list for awhile now.
Having different levels of forum sponsorship is a great idea. Hell, I had a hard time even finding where the sponsors were listed besides seeing it in red under their username. I would bring en masse banner ads and everything else into the fray at this point. If its going to be pay-to-play then make it easy for people to put the $$$ where their mouth is. That is a much better way to politic than to close threads and in effect scare away the grass roots support for these 20+ year old cars. Mostly I think it would be really great to see my 150+ bookmarked vendors ALL listed as sponsors because they will all be able to justify the cost/benefits.
And yes...I am a card-carrying member and also confused as to why I need to send a personal note to a mod to get the red-letters under my username when I have paid the dues and their should be some record of my status.
If you read past here, please read the post with an open-mind because the content might cause strong feelings with some of you. I was an "almost" buyer of one of Dan's kits, and anyone who thinks he is making money off the Iceshark "group buy" is seriously deluded. I work in the mfg industry and $275.00 for a much lesser scale harness is just plain average. He uses the best of everything for parts and does the work in his spare time. I can't even believe it was suggested that he is paying himself $375/hr. He doesn't do enough qty to outsource his labor to china!
I'm wondering how all this recently came to a head as I was under the impression that Dan and other non-sponsors have been having small informal group buys on the list for awhile now.
Having different levels of forum sponsorship is a great idea. Hell, I had a hard time even finding where the sponsors were listed besides seeing it in red under their username. I would bring en masse banner ads and everything else into the fray at this point. If its going to be pay-to-play then make it easy for people to put the $$$ where their mouth is. That is a much better way to politic than to close threads and in effect scare away the grass roots support for these 20+ year old cars. Mostly I think it would be really great to see my 150+ bookmarked vendors ALL listed as sponsors because they will all be able to justify the cost/benefits.
And yes...I am a card-carrying member and also confused as to why I need to send a personal note to a mod to get the red-letters under my username when I have paid the dues and their should be some record of my status.
Last edited by pcarphanatik; 07-24-2005 at 08:47 PM.
07-24-2005, 08:24 PM
#48
Racer
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Posts: 384
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I must say I am happy that Jon and Jenn have finally posted on this subject. However, i must say i am in mostly in agreement with Matt H, Manning, and Red1. They have said my thoughts, but worded much more effectively. I have to say that I have deep appreciation for rennlist, John, Jenn, and for Dan. For it is us who made him start the cable build, not him. I have begun installation of my cables and am completely amazed by the quality. This is not to say i do not frequent the sponsors, however. Some wares can only be had outside of the distrbutors and vendors, and this item in particular is not only an upgrade, but a major safety item.
And when i am finished installing the cables i will raise a frosty one for Rennlist and especially for Dan.
And when i am finished installing the cables i will raise a frosty one for Rennlist and especially for Dan.
07-24-2005, 09:04 PM
#49
Budding Photographer
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: A Quiet Little Lake In The Middle of Nowhere
Posts: 7,007
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
Hoping for a peaceful resolution :::sigh:::
We are all friends who just love cars and happen to run into each other on the net!
We are all friends who just love cars and happen to run into each other on the net!
07-24-2005, 09:13 PM
#50
Race Director
I've been following this with considerable interest. You see, I'm and owner of one of those "little guy" companies.
My company is pretty much Nissan oriented, however we do have a few applications outside Nissans and one that would be of interest to Porsche owners, however, that is not the point. My partners and I actively participate in a number of forums that are of personal interest to us. We would like to support those forums, but there is no bloody way our small part-time company can afford to. The other forums have similar ad rules to Rennlist and the sponsorships are just too much. For a big, full-time operation $125 per month is chicken feed. Not so for us. Still, we would like to support the forums.
It would be nice if there were a way for small guys to support forums on a smaller scale. That is not a Rennlist isssue, but an issue with every forum I participate in. We don't spam and rarely mention our company or products. Mainly that is because we try to respect the rules of the forums. To do otherwise is really not cool. We do on rare occasion mention a product if it will solve a problem for someone. You see, we offer pretty unique solutions (not unlike Iceshark I might add).
The purpose of this post is not to find fault with anyone (participants, moderators, sponors, or forum owners - BTW, great job John and Jenn). The purpose is to say there are innovators out there, but some of them need nurturing before they can enter the big-time, not unlike pro atheletes who pay their dues in the minor leagues before playing in the majors. It would be nice if forum owners would find a way for this to happen that would be fair to everyone, including the big-time site sponsors.
Again, I'm not complianing because I'd like to advertise here (I may someday if we have some decent Porsche applications), but to point out the problem of small companies sponsoring forums is truly not simply a Rennlist thing
Now, I'd like to propose a solution. Perhaps forum owners can in some way have a "shop" where the small guys can sell product through a page associated with the forum. The forum would simply take a cut of each sale. This way, the forum is supported and the small time companies can get some exposure and some nurturing. The big-time sponsors are unlikely to want to participate because the "cut" each month would likely far exceed the regular sponsorship. In the end, it could make everyone happy, or at at least reasonably so.
John and Jenn, great job with Rennlist. No complaints, but perhaps with some creative thought, a better solution can be found for this.
Oh, and to be fair, I used to have a link to my company's web site in my sig file, although I rarely mentioned it (probably 6x out of nearly 5,000 posts). I was politely asked to remove it and did so immediately because the truth is I was violating the charter. I removed it immediately and without complaint.
[edit for spelling]
My company is pretty much Nissan oriented, however we do have a few applications outside Nissans and one that would be of interest to Porsche owners, however, that is not the point. My partners and I actively participate in a number of forums that are of personal interest to us. We would like to support those forums, but there is no bloody way our small part-time company can afford to. The other forums have similar ad rules to Rennlist and the sponsorships are just too much. For a big, full-time operation $125 per month is chicken feed. Not so for us. Still, we would like to support the forums.
It would be nice if there were a way for small guys to support forums on a smaller scale. That is not a Rennlist isssue, but an issue with every forum I participate in. We don't spam and rarely mention our company or products. Mainly that is because we try to respect the rules of the forums. To do otherwise is really not cool. We do on rare occasion mention a product if it will solve a problem for someone. You see, we offer pretty unique solutions (not unlike Iceshark I might add).
The purpose of this post is not to find fault with anyone (participants, moderators, sponors, or forum owners - BTW, great job John and Jenn). The purpose is to say there are innovators out there, but some of them need nurturing before they can enter the big-time, not unlike pro atheletes who pay their dues in the minor leagues before playing in the majors. It would be nice if forum owners would find a way for this to happen that would be fair to everyone, including the big-time site sponsors.
Again, I'm not complianing because I'd like to advertise here (I may someday if we have some decent Porsche applications), but to point out the problem of small companies sponsoring forums is truly not simply a Rennlist thing
Now, I'd like to propose a solution. Perhaps forum owners can in some way have a "shop" where the small guys can sell product through a page associated with the forum. The forum would simply take a cut of each sale. This way, the forum is supported and the small time companies can get some exposure and some nurturing. The big-time sponsors are unlikely to want to participate because the "cut" each month would likely far exceed the regular sponsorship. In the end, it could make everyone happy, or at at least reasonably so.
John and Jenn, great job with Rennlist. No complaints, but perhaps with some creative thought, a better solution can be found for this.
Oh, and to be fair, I used to have a link to my company's web site in my sig file, although I rarely mentioned it (probably 6x out of nearly 5,000 posts). I was politely asked to remove it and did so immediately because the truth is I was violating the charter. I removed it immediately and without complaint.
[edit for spelling]
Last edited by Geo; 07-24-2005 at 09:30 PM.
07-24-2005, 09:15 PM
#51
Nerd Herder
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
OK- My time for MY 2 cents worth.
Actually, It's NICE to see.
Having been the victim of personal attacks and mudslinging- It's refreshing to see the "boss" step in and challenge the gauntlet on the rules. For a while I was QUOTING sections of the rennlist charter in my sig line-
I was ready to quit Rennlist completely but my "help others" because I learned it HERE - stepped in and trumped my anger.
It's sad that a few can undermine the general good this site represents. I understand the Iceshark issue, and it's unfortunate we seem to have lost another great Rennlister. I'd list the GREAT RENNLISTERS who have left due to issues on and off the boards- but as usual, I'll hold my tongue (i.e. Keyboard)
Most of these "outed" guys and gals I still converse with.
It's the golden rule.
I Thank Rennlist (John and Jenn) for being, the members have helped me tremendously. I've met great friends, gotten help and parts I needed, and helped others as I believe in the "Pay it forward" philosophy.
I mean, Hell. I'm a friggin old fart. I've been driving my POS 924S for over 8 years daily. In that time I've learned a few things- mostly specific to early 944's and I'm an advocate of 924S's. I will help ANYONE with ANY problem. If I know the answer to a a post- I supply it.
Even if it's the 45th time.
I've had my name and reputation here drawn over cold hard glass schards with NO admin/moderator intervention.
(That pisses me off the most.)
I STAY with Rennlist to help others- not **** on open wounds.
I would hope the Admins and Moderators understand my plight, understand my reason for STILL being here (to help others- as there will ALWAYS be Noobies) and manage to reprimand the ******** for simply being ********. (Chris prays hard at this point..)
There. I've said it.
I have managed to work thru, and work with, most of the people I have learned to accept and maybe despise by thier words, deeds and actions. I can forgive and transcend.
I havent named names, but if gone unchecked , as my last hurrah- I will.
If these are my last words here- so be it.
John and Jenn- I appreciate your time and efforts. I Know you both and self admittedly appreciate your efforts on this community.
To the community- a big thank you. I have tried to pay it forward by helping WITHOUT BEING OPINIONATED and welcoming people I havent yet met, or dont even know.
I give the benefit of the doubt.
FWIW- somebody needs to start covering a contributing PAYING member's back.
Actually, It's NICE to see.
Having been the victim of personal attacks and mudslinging- It's refreshing to see the "boss" step in and challenge the gauntlet on the rules. For a while I was QUOTING sections of the rennlist charter in my sig line-
I was ready to quit Rennlist completely but my "help others" because I learned it HERE - stepped in and trumped my anger.
It's sad that a few can undermine the general good this site represents. I understand the Iceshark issue, and it's unfortunate we seem to have lost another great Rennlister. I'd list the GREAT RENNLISTERS who have left due to issues on and off the boards- but as usual, I'll hold my tongue (i.e. Keyboard)
Most of these "outed" guys and gals I still converse with.
It's the golden rule.
I Thank Rennlist (John and Jenn) for being, the members have helped me tremendously. I've met great friends, gotten help and parts I needed, and helped others as I believe in the "Pay it forward" philosophy.
I mean, Hell. I'm a friggin old fart. I've been driving my POS 924S for over 8 years daily. In that time I've learned a few things- mostly specific to early 944's and I'm an advocate of 924S's. I will help ANYONE with ANY problem. If I know the answer to a a post- I supply it.
Even if it's the 45th time.
I've had my name and reputation here drawn over cold hard glass schards with NO admin/moderator intervention.
(That pisses me off the most.)
I STAY with Rennlist to help others- not **** on open wounds.
I would hope the Admins and Moderators understand my plight, understand my reason for STILL being here (to help others- as there will ALWAYS be Noobies) and manage to reprimand the ******** for simply being ********. (Chris prays hard at this point..)
There. I've said it.
I have managed to work thru, and work with, most of the people I have learned to accept and maybe despise by thier words, deeds and actions. I can forgive and transcend.
I havent named names, but if gone unchecked , as my last hurrah- I will.
If these are my last words here- so be it.
John and Jenn- I appreciate your time and efforts. I Know you both and self admittedly appreciate your efforts on this community.
To the community- a big thank you. I have tried to pay it forward by helping WITHOUT BEING OPINIONATED and welcoming people I havent yet met, or dont even know.
I give the benefit of the doubt.
FWIW- somebody needs to start covering a contributing PAYING member's back.
07-24-2005, 09:20 PM
#52
Hitsquad Ninja
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by DanG
But I will say that seeing that multi-page thread pop back up to the top of the list every few days was pretty annoying to someone with no interest in it.
Anyway, Jeff, that's a GREAT idea. I really like it. Hell I'm even willing to help you out if you need any help.
07-24-2005, 09:24 PM
#53
Nerd Herder
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
FWIW- my last post sat on this PC for 3 hours while I contemplated posting it.
99.9% of the people I have met thru Rennlist I would take a bullet for. Honestly and realistically.
The community as a whole is THAT good.
99.9% of the people I have met thru Rennlist I would take a bullet for. Honestly and realistically.
The community as a whole is THAT good.
07-24-2005, 10:00 PM
#54
Three Wheelin'
Originally Posted by Jake 944CS
If you don't like what's in this forum, don't visit it. Easy as pie. Stop your bitching. If a 928 guy has no interest in 944's, you think he's going to be visiting the 944 forum?
Anyway, Jeff, that's a GREAT idea. I really like it. Hell I'm even willing to help you out if you need any help.
Anyway, Jeff, that's a GREAT idea. I really like it. Hell I'm even willing to help you out if you need any help.
I like it here.
07-24-2005, 10:32 PM
#55
Pro
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Reno, NV
Posts: 509
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by DanG
Ugh. You guys missed what I was trying to say. Oh well, I probably couldn't explain it anyways.
I like it here.
I like it here.
Maybe that's actually another idea for "little guy's". They could pay x-amount/mth to have a group buy stickied; no other benefits included.
I really like geo's idea too; if rennlist were able to take a 7% cut on the sale of all group buy items that could be very beneficial to the forums.
07-25-2005, 01:21 AM
#57
Instructor
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 196
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I know I am not a paying member yet....But i am just waiting for the online registration thing to get working, but now that i know he works 3 jobs I might just go ahead and do it the other way and not wait for it to get done..
But anyway i think Geo's idea would be really cool. Where if someone is selling something then a part of the money would go to the site....I think it is an awesome idea but then again I am just a registered user.....so please dont flame me for not being a member yet.....soon real soon
But anyway i think Geo's idea would be really cool. Where if someone is selling something then a part of the money would go to the site....I think it is an awesome idea but then again I am just a registered user.....so please dont flame me for not being a member yet.....soon real soon
07-25-2005, 07:05 AM
#58
Race Director
It's amazing how certain people somehow managed to work their separate, dramatic personal issues that have nothing to do with this thread into this discussion. This isn't the place for it. Anyway, back on topic........
Listen, this IS John's board. I may, or may not, agree with all of John's decisions, but in the end who cares? We are all guests here (whether we pay or not, sponsors or members, users or specialists). There was a similar discussion about this on the 951 BBS the other day, some analogies were used and this is more or less what I said about this:
This is like a party at a friends house that has the rules posted on the front door that you must read before entering. Read the rules, and if you like it, go on in, contribute, and have a good time. Don't like the rules? Well, then go find a different party. Don't go into the party and bitch about the rules on the door. If once in the party, you get a little tipsy and slip up, well then be prepared to have the host slap your wrist. It could be an honest mistake, so the thing to do would be correct your behaviour, and get over it. Get mad because Little Timmy slipped up and didn't get slapped, yet you did? Who cares. It's not all about you. If you can't handle it, you don't have a lot of choices. Do you think the host is going to let you form a quorum and discuss his rules, and tell him how to run his affairs in his own house? Not. Do you think the majority of the guests there want to listen to you bitch about it and ruin their party? Not. There's the door.
That may be an over-simplified harsh view, but this has really been dragged out into some sort of huge ugly drama. I don't know Dan, but he seems like a nice guy, and I have seen his kits and think they are top notch. Do I want one? Yes, someday (when I have accomplished a few other things that are higher on my needs list). Do I have a right to complain about the recent turn of events? No. Right now Dan is upset, he has stated that he may not be making anymore kits, and if that is the case that is sad. Hopefully after time he will start to make them again, and they will be available thru some sort of venue (Pelican, here, Porscheforums, his own website, etc.). Maybe John and Dan will work things out.
This debacle is going to die down and there will be something else to argue about in a few months. And then another thing after that. Long-time rennlisters will remember arguments about Craig, AMAF, Huntley, AMW, SFR, members vs nonmembers, new forum changes, yadda yadda yadda yadda. John is still here, Rennlist is still here, and it is the largest Porsche-oriented site on the web. Seems like, that for the most part, he is doing something right. You can't please everyone, but John seems to be doing a good job of pleasing a lot of people.
07-25-2005, 07:34 AM
#59
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Cairns, FNQ, Australia and Macau SAR
Posts: 2,155
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Jenn
Hi Matt,
We certainly have worked with numerous other small companies or one person operations to help them out so that they can get their product on Rennlist without being in clear violation of the Charter or putting at risk other sponsor positions on Rennlist. Unfortunately, we were not extended a professional courtesy.
The only contact that we received was when the thread was pulled.
-Jennifer
We certainly have worked with numerous other small companies or one person operations to help them out so that they can get their product on Rennlist without being in clear violation of the Charter or putting at risk other sponsor positions on Rennlist. Unfortunately, we were not extended a professional courtesy.
The only contact that we received was when the thread was pulled.
-Jennifer
I'm not going to read the rest of this thread because:
1. It reminds me too much of other communities that I have seen self destruct.
2. I can see both sides, but in the end, John and Jen own this space.
3. We'are part of one of the best communities I have ever been involved with, and even though, I will probably never meet most of you I consider you friends.
To John D and Jennifer: Thank you. Visiting Rennlist is one of the highlights of my day, everyday!!!
To Iceshark, mate you gave me some free advice when I was buying my car. Thank You
To all the others. I really look forward to meeting some of you in September, but until then, pull your BLOODY heads in!!!!
Other than that,
07-25-2005, 07:57 AM
#60
Banned
Thread Starter
Hi folks,
Some great input - my thanks..!! I'll write this reply "in short-hand", as I've got to leave in a bit, so if I miss a reply to you directly, I'll try to catch up later tonite..
First - thank you, Dan! As you (and probably everyone else knows, now
), it's the way this "unfolded" that irked me rather than what you were trying to accomplish for the folks on Rennlist. My thanks again for your posts back in this thread and taking the time to explain your position.
For that - I'll copy in a PM I sent to another Rennlister several days ago (well before this post). When you read it - I think you'll have some further insight into how I view Rennlist, the community, all users, Members and such. Along those same lines...
I really like George's idea and thank many of you for adding your input on it. It would take a LOT of administrative paperwork off of Jen and myself, allow smaller businesses to benefit - and frankly, alleviate situations like this in the future. As well - I'd have no problem at all "hosting" that website and allow one of you who has volunteered to maintain it - access to keep it up to date. To launch it - Dan, you are the first of the new Rennlist "Co-Sponsors" - and you will see that your title has changed. Welcome!! I figure you deserve it given the events of the past months
Also - you'll see your post "pinned" at the top of the forum to use as updates and contact info...
GOBOGIE - thanks!! I like my $16,000 993 as well
TD in DC - Thank you... Very well said.. Want to "ghost write" my Admin posts for me?? 
Harry H. - Yep - three jobs. Want one of mine??
Karl2bdc - Iceberg lettuce...
Geo and all - thank you again....
And....
Frankly - I don't care if you are a paying Member or not - your input, thoughts and critisms are as important as anyone elses. If anyone says otherwise - they'd be wrong.. My thanks for your post and offer of support. If you'd like, feel free to to join when it "feels right" to you - not on anyone elses timetable, OK?
John D.
~~~~
Here is my PM I said I'd copy....
"......My thanks for your note..! As well, the Charter is somewhat "loose", as it allows the Moderators and Jen or myself to make decisions that are in the best interest of the users/Members/Sponsors. Remember, this site is about the "community" first - and the "Charter" allows us to try to keep that community "intact". By further "defining" the rules, my fear is that we become a victim of enforcing rules - rather then re-inforcing the "spirit" of Rennlist, where they may be in contradiction - if that makes any sense?
Also - that thread is awesome! It brings up a number of issues that should and need to be discussed freely without fear of retribution. I think I understand all the views expressed, and each has a great deal of merit.
As for the site being "for persons to bring new innovative ideas to the table without being silenced" - I have those same concerns, and in fact, I've "comped" more Sponsors who are starting up their business then not. I did those as a courtesy - and will continue to do so where it's in the best interest of that new company and the site users (all users, not just Members). For example and on a historical note, you may not know that when Wayne first started PelicanParts, I hosted his site for him. Heck, I even maintained his Forums on my servers. I never asked to be paid for it, as he was a young guy trying to "get started" - and his business soared. Years later - Wayne and I remain professional associates, and I'm proud that in some small way, Jen and I could help with his start-up that turned into a career. And there are other businesses as well that have been established or become careers from within Rennlist - ViperBob (now acquired by DEVEK), Carnewal, BumperPlugs, RennBay, Eyal, dc Automotive, GHL.. And the list goes on... Most of these folks paid nothing in "dollars" to be a Sponsor at the onset - but "gave back" to the community and appreciated the "community" that Jen and I provided from a technical capability.
Further, if Rennlist "were about the money", I suspect Jen & I should have closed it down long ago as being an unprofitable business model. If that weren't so, I wouldn't have two full time jobs in addition to Rennlist, and Jen wouldn't work six days a week at her job? For that - it stays up and running through our donation of time and money - supplemented by Members and Sponsors. If it were to become "profitable", we'd probably re-invest that money into the "Moderators", as today - their only compensation is an "atta boy and thank you!". It's a job without pay and zero benefits. Why they do it - I don't know - except perhaps they have the same vision as Jen and I. Simply a vision of an enthusiast site run by enthusiasts for enthusiasts. It's really that simple - and was the fundemental principle that lead us to put on-line PorscheList back in May of 1998. That vision hasn't changed - but the size of the site has, as too - has the size of the "community" and the worldwide effect it has had on the personal lives of so many. To that point..
Folks have been married from meeting within Rennlist/PorscheList. We've had young men and women, who were Members leave to fight on foreign soil. I'm aware of several who will never return. We have raised well over $250,000 over the course of the years for various charities, and not a single penny was retained by Rennlist. We have had Members pass away - and entire lists/forums have mourned the loss and the passing. We have had "flame wars" and "love fests" within that same community. And that same community has discussed politics to Porsches - with a worldwide perspective - and in an un-moderated format. For that - our community extends to 56 countries and includes all races, creeds, religions and ethnic backgrounds. It's somewhat daunting and humbling, and yet for that - this site remains about that "community". And as I said - if it were "about the money", it wouldn't exist - but some things can't be measured by a "balance sheet". I'm somewhat certain the "value" of the community far exceeds any profit margin, or frankly - even the hope of making a "profit".
Anyway - sorry for getting off an a tangent, but I just thought you'd like to know why the Charter is pretty loose...
My thanks again.....!
John D."
Some great input - my thanks..!! I'll write this reply "in short-hand", as I've got to leave in a bit, so if I miss a reply to you directly, I'll try to catch up later tonite..
First - thank you, Dan! As you (and probably everyone else knows, now
), it's the way this "unfolded" that irked me rather than what you were trying to accomplish for the folks on Rennlist. My thanks again for your posts back in this thread and taking the time to explain your position.For that - I'll copy in a PM I sent to another Rennlister several days ago (well before this post). When you read it - I think you'll have some further insight into how I view Rennlist, the community, all users, Members and such. Along those same lines...
I really like George's idea and thank many of you for adding your input on it. It would take a LOT of administrative paperwork off of Jen and myself, allow smaller businesses to benefit - and frankly, alleviate situations like this in the future. As well - I'd have no problem at all "hosting" that website and allow one of you who has volunteered to maintain it - access to keep it up to date. To launch it - Dan, you are the first of the new Rennlist "Co-Sponsors" - and you will see that your title has changed. Welcome!! I figure you deserve it given the events of the past months
Also - you'll see your post "pinned" at the top of the forum to use as updates and contact info...
GOBOGIE - thanks!! I like my $16,000 993 as well
TD in DC - Thank you... Very well said.. Want to "ghost write" my Admin posts for me??
Harry H. - Yep - three jobs. Want one of mine??
Karl2bdc - Iceberg lettuce...
Geo and all - thank you again....
And....
Originally Posted by snyper238
I know I am not a paying member yet......I think it is an awesome idea but then again I am just a registered user.....so please dont flame me for not being a member yet.....soon real soon
My thanks for your post and offer of support. If you'd like, feel free to to join when it "feels right" to you - not on anyone elses timetable, OK?John D.
~~~~
Here is my PM I said I'd copy....
"......My thanks for your note..! As well, the Charter is somewhat "loose", as it allows the Moderators and Jen or myself to make decisions that are in the best interest of the users/Members/Sponsors. Remember, this site is about the "community" first - and the "Charter" allows us to try to keep that community "intact". By further "defining" the rules, my fear is that we become a victim of enforcing rules - rather then re-inforcing the "spirit" of Rennlist, where they may be in contradiction - if that makes any sense?
Also - that thread is awesome! It brings up a number of issues that should and need to be discussed freely without fear of retribution. I think I understand all the views expressed, and each has a great deal of merit.
As for the site being "for persons to bring new innovative ideas to the table without being silenced" - I have those same concerns, and in fact, I've "comped" more Sponsors who are starting up their business then not. I did those as a courtesy - and will continue to do so where it's in the best interest of that new company and the site users (all users, not just Members). For example and on a historical note, you may not know that when Wayne first started PelicanParts, I hosted his site for him. Heck, I even maintained his Forums on my servers. I never asked to be paid for it, as he was a young guy trying to "get started" - and his business soared. Years later - Wayne and I remain professional associates, and I'm proud that in some small way, Jen and I could help with his start-up that turned into a career. And there are other businesses as well that have been established or become careers from within Rennlist - ViperBob (now acquired by DEVEK), Carnewal, BumperPlugs, RennBay, Eyal, dc Automotive, GHL.. And the list goes on... Most of these folks paid nothing in "dollars" to be a Sponsor at the onset - but "gave back" to the community and appreciated the "community" that Jen and I provided from a technical capability.
Further, if Rennlist "were about the money", I suspect Jen & I should have closed it down long ago as being an unprofitable business model. If that weren't so, I wouldn't have two full time jobs in addition to Rennlist, and Jen wouldn't work six days a week at her job? For that - it stays up and running through our donation of time and money - supplemented by Members and Sponsors. If it were to become "profitable", we'd probably re-invest that money into the "Moderators", as today - their only compensation is an "atta boy and thank you!". It's a job without pay and zero benefits. Why they do it - I don't know - except perhaps they have the same vision as Jen and I. Simply a vision of an enthusiast site run by enthusiasts for enthusiasts. It's really that simple - and was the fundemental principle that lead us to put on-line PorscheList back in May of 1998. That vision hasn't changed - but the size of the site has, as too - has the size of the "community" and the worldwide effect it has had on the personal lives of so many. To that point..
Folks have been married from meeting within Rennlist/PorscheList. We've had young men and women, who were Members leave to fight on foreign soil. I'm aware of several who will never return. We have raised well over $250,000 over the course of the years for various charities, and not a single penny was retained by Rennlist. We have had Members pass away - and entire lists/forums have mourned the loss and the passing. We have had "flame wars" and "love fests" within that same community. And that same community has discussed politics to Porsches - with a worldwide perspective - and in an un-moderated format. For that - our community extends to 56 countries and includes all races, creeds, religions and ethnic backgrounds. It's somewhat daunting and humbling, and yet for that - this site remains about that "community". And as I said - if it were "about the money", it wouldn't exist - but some things can't be measured by a "balance sheet". I'm somewhat certain the "value" of the community far exceeds any profit margin, or frankly - even the hope of making a "profit".
Anyway - sorry for getting off an a tangent, but I just thought you'd like to know why the Charter is pretty loose...
My thanks again.....!
John D."