View Poll Results: IS THIS REAL?
YES
26
83.87%
No way!
5
16.13%
Voters: 31. You may not vote on this poll
Is this for real? Home Made Centrifugal Supercharger?
06-21-2005, 01:09 PM
#46
Burning Brakes
George, could you please elaborate on these points somewhat? I have no personal expertise in this whatever, so could you please consider the following regarding SC vs. turbo heat generation:
1. Turbocharger, in extracting energy from the hot exhaust gasses, delays their departure from the engine bay, perhaps allowing more heat to linger there than may be the case with stock exhaust routing.
2. Ambient air, when compressed by a turbine, SC, diesel piston, etc., gets hotter. (Boyle's Law?) Seemingly , a given volume X of ambient air, compressed to a smaller given volume Y, would generate a given amount of heat Z. So, why would a SC cause the compressed ambient air to be any hotter than if compressed by turbine or diesel process, assuming X before and Y after volumes were the same for the various compression methods?
3. How does the compressed air know what process is driving the compressor shaft, and/or respond any differently to turbo vs. SC?
1. Turbocharger, in extracting energy from the hot exhaust gasses, delays their departure from the engine bay, perhaps allowing more heat to linger there than may be the case with stock exhaust routing.
2. Ambient air, when compressed by a turbine, SC, diesel piston, etc., gets hotter. (Boyle's Law?) Seemingly , a given volume X of ambient air, compressed to a smaller given volume Y, would generate a given amount of heat Z. So, why would a SC cause the compressed ambient air to be any hotter than if compressed by turbine or diesel process, assuming X before and Y after volumes were the same for the various compression methods?
3. How does the compressed air know what process is driving the compressor shaft, and/or respond any differently to turbo vs. SC?
06-21-2005, 02:32 PM
#47
Racer
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A bit late in the thread. This guys set up looks similar to my SFR SC. It looks like a half turbo. I believe the innards are different blade wise etc. being specific to SC application. Rather than being driven by the exhaust side fan it is driven by gears attached to the pulley. There lies the Parasitic difference between turbo and SC. one requires HP from the motor to drive it. SC is not as complicated as it is made out to be. Don't get me wrong allot of know how goes into the design etc., far beyond my know how, but the basic concept is straight forward. You have all the same hurdles as turbo charging; heat, psi, a/f ratio etc. Ultimately if you took a 951 motor, removed the turbo, added an SC with the same boost, the cars would be similar. The Turbo would have a bit more usable HP because of the parasitic nature of the SC but the SC would boost higher, sooner.
On a side note I have not really been flamed as of yet. I spent allot of time reading/learning. The "buy a 951" remarks were every where so I never openly asked anyones opinion. I decided on SFR and went for it. Now I am doing a ground up rebuild with turbo pistons and hope to add more boost. I do have the 951 for back up
On a side note I have not really been flamed as of yet. I spent allot of time reading/learning. The "buy a 951" remarks were every where so I never openly asked anyones opinion. I decided on SFR and went for it. Now I am doing a ground up rebuild with turbo pistons and hope to add more boost. I do have the 951 for back up
06-21-2005, 11:55 PM
#48
Race Director
Q1) I don't know what you're asking.
Q2) It is not the same for all methods. Some methods of compressing air are more efficient than others and do not increase the temp as much as less efficient methods. I am not a turbocharger engineer (although a buddy of mine is for Garrett turbochargers) and cannot tell you all the details of this. I'm actually generally more interested in NA engines for a variety of reasons, so I don't pay quite as much attention to the intricacies of turbocharging/supercharging. I do know for certain that compressor efficiency is measured by the delta t (change in temp). I also know that the best superchargers are not as efficient as properly sized (this is the trick) turbochargers.
Q3) The air does not know what is driving it. I have to admit you're exceeding my knowledge of the subject at this pont, but I'm 99% certain it all has to deal with the compressors. Now, you may ask why a centrifugal SC wouldn't be as efficient as a turbo (or at least you should). The answer is I don't know why, but I know they are not. They are however the most efficient superchargers.
Before you think my buddy is giving me the company line about turbos vs SCs, keep in mind he deals with both in his job, so there is no wishful thinking here to push the company line.
I could probably do some searches on the SE-R Mailing List where he used to be a member and went into all of this is some detail, but that was a few years back , AND I'm currently on dial-up in Anchorage, AK so on-line time is pretty precious.
Q2) It is not the same for all methods. Some methods of compressing air are more efficient than others and do not increase the temp as much as less efficient methods. I am not a turbocharger engineer (although a buddy of mine is for Garrett turbochargers) and cannot tell you all the details of this. I'm actually generally more interested in NA engines for a variety of reasons, so I don't pay quite as much attention to the intricacies of turbocharging/supercharging. I do know for certain that compressor efficiency is measured by the delta t (change in temp). I also know that the best superchargers are not as efficient as properly sized (this is the trick) turbochargers.
Q3) The air does not know what is driving it. I have to admit you're exceeding my knowledge of the subject at this pont, but I'm 99% certain it all has to deal with the compressors. Now, you may ask why a centrifugal SC wouldn't be as efficient as a turbo (or at least you should). The answer is I don't know why, but I know they are not. They are however the most efficient superchargers.
Before you think my buddy is giving me the company line about turbos vs SCs, keep in mind he deals with both in his job, so there is no wishful thinking here to push the company line.
I could probably do some searches on the SE-R Mailing List where he used to be a member and went into all of this is some detail, but that was a few years back , AND I'm currently on dial-up in Anchorage, AK so on-line time is pretty precious.
07-06-2005, 05:59 PM
#49
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Looks like these guys have gone and made the unit smaller and improved cooling? Man this guy or guys just keep on going.
Well that’s the latest on the 924 board, I read a topic over their that this guy and some guy called racing and another called nick had, seems they went round the block over a head swap and some crazy mods to a 931. This supercharger guy seems to know his stuff, but likes challenging traditional and conventional thinking.
This guy seems to be on track with the stuff he is talking about, but this guy Racing seems intent that head swaps and other things of that extreme nature, require money, a team of friends or engineers and lots of help. If that’s the case, then how is any of this supercharger possible? I mean a head swap as well. Come on, thats just to much.
I just don’t get it though, why build a cheap supercharger for the masses? And if it’s as good as they claim, why sell it so cheap, if its as good as the things on the market, then why isn’t it going to cost an arm and a leg?
What kind of performance can we expect on a 2.5 or 2.0 engine at 6 PSI or 8 PSI? I assume the 2.0 keeps its CIS, the 2.5 sticks with the DME, he/they mention a MAF upgrade and other fuel options.
Sounds right on, keeps referring to the BAE Turbo kit as some kind of comparison? If the MAF is as cheap and easy as he claims to adapt to the DME, then why isn’t it more popular, then they also talk about "guru racing" and map conversions. I think he mentioned that the Lindsey MAF stuff was originally designed to allow MAF tuning on fords?? I checked the FORD stuff is much cheaper. So what gives?
This guy claims that you can install and tune the voltage to tweak. He also claims he knows of a MAF that is almost a Bolt on?
Their is also talk about Dahlback and Lehman Intakes like seen on the old Rally cars and newer cars? Seems like the dual plenum rocks, I look it up on the net, very cool looking. It would apparently be a huge improvement for the 924 and 944 engines.
Why aren’t we seeing this kind of talk on the board, all these 924 guys seem to be some serious innovators? Well maybe people are doing this stuff, but is anyone got any information? They also seem to be coming up with cheap DIY solutions, like EFI conversions. Their are guys on that board making fuel rails, Crank triggers, etc. I know guys over here are doing some of the same. But wow lot of innovation.
Lot of different talk about intakes rebuilds with VW pistons and the like... Seems all these 924 guys are getting things done in some interesting cost saving ways.
The supercharger guy, says that they have split testing up to do the 944 and 924 together? I wonder how long it will be till we see some good numbers for both, that’s what will sell me, when I see it installed on a car and making power.
It also seems that the supercharger guy, has a turbo kit and roots style supercharger kit for both the 924 and 944 that he has to finish. He also does nitrous kits from scratch and other things, man how does one guy find the time and what does this guy do for a living?
I may be talking to hear myself, but this just seems crazy, that one guy or group of guys is investing this much time in all this stuff for the 944, let alone the 924.
Someone tell me what gives? Seems to good to be true. I keep thinking its all a big gag, just to set people up for a fall.
Well that’s the latest on the 924 board, I read a topic over their that this guy and some guy called racing and another called nick had, seems they went round the block over a head swap and some crazy mods to a 931. This supercharger guy seems to know his stuff, but likes challenging traditional and conventional thinking.
This guy seems to be on track with the stuff he is talking about, but this guy Racing seems intent that head swaps and other things of that extreme nature, require money, a team of friends or engineers and lots of help. If that’s the case, then how is any of this supercharger possible? I mean a head swap as well. Come on, thats just to much.
I just don’t get it though, why build a cheap supercharger for the masses? And if it’s as good as they claim, why sell it so cheap, if its as good as the things on the market, then why isn’t it going to cost an arm and a leg?
What kind of performance can we expect on a 2.5 or 2.0 engine at 6 PSI or 8 PSI? I assume the 2.0 keeps its CIS, the 2.5 sticks with the DME, he/they mention a MAF upgrade and other fuel options.
Sounds right on, keeps referring to the BAE Turbo kit as some kind of comparison? If the MAF is as cheap and easy as he claims to adapt to the DME, then why isn’t it more popular, then they also talk about "guru racing" and map conversions. I think he mentioned that the Lindsey MAF stuff was originally designed to allow MAF tuning on fords?? I checked the FORD stuff is much cheaper. So what gives?
This guy claims that you can install and tune the voltage to tweak. He also claims he knows of a MAF that is almost a Bolt on?
Their is also talk about Dahlback and Lehman Intakes like seen on the old Rally cars and newer cars? Seems like the dual plenum rocks, I look it up on the net, very cool looking. It would apparently be a huge improvement for the 924 and 944 engines.
Why aren’t we seeing this kind of talk on the board, all these 924 guys seem to be some serious innovators? Well maybe people are doing this stuff, but is anyone got any information? They also seem to be coming up with cheap DIY solutions, like EFI conversions. Their are guys on that board making fuel rails, Crank triggers, etc. I know guys over here are doing some of the same. But wow lot of innovation.
Lot of different talk about intakes rebuilds with VW pistons and the like... Seems all these 924 guys are getting things done in some interesting cost saving ways.
The supercharger guy, says that they have split testing up to do the 944 and 924 together? I wonder how long it will be till we see some good numbers for both, that’s what will sell me, when I see it installed on a car and making power.
It also seems that the supercharger guy, has a turbo kit and roots style supercharger kit for both the 924 and 944 that he has to finish. He also does nitrous kits from scratch and other things, man how does one guy find the time and what does this guy do for a living?
I may be talking to hear myself, but this just seems crazy, that one guy or group of guys is investing this much time in all this stuff for the 944, let alone the 924.
Someone tell me what gives? Seems to good to be true. I keep thinking its all a big gag, just to set people up for a fall.
Last edited by Sabbath; 07-07-2005 at 02:38 AM.
07-06-2005, 10:59 PM
#51
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I have asked, I am not getting much in the way of answers. I was hoping that someone on here knows more or can get some answers, The last email I sent was not answered and I got no confirmation it was even read. I think he is mad at me. Not sure. Guess he would have reason to be mad, I can be a pest.
It just boggles my mind, that someone is fooling around in the garage and making this stuff. Lot of questions. I want to know especially, whos car it was tested on and what about pics of the install. I was thinking about one of the kits on the market, but a kit at half the price sounds better. Oh man and what if it hurts my car...
Oh skip it... guess I have to sit and wait... doesnt anyone know these guy(s), spy photos, conversations, etc... ??? Please?
It just boggles my mind, that someone is fooling around in the garage and making this stuff. Lot of questions. I want to know especially, whos car it was tested on and what about pics of the install. I was thinking about one of the kits on the market, but a kit at half the price sounds better. Oh man and what if it hurts my car...
Oh skip it... guess I have to sit and wait... doesnt anyone know these guy(s), spy photos, conversations, etc... ??? Please?
07-10-2005, 12:15 AM
#53
Racer
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Sabbath,
The reason you are not getting answers is that you are not asking the right questions. There are few if any members here who know this guy except Helstrm, who told you that YES he is a stand up guy, and Yes he is for real. If you are basically hoping someone here to say NO IT IS FAKE or YES LETS BUILD ONE NOW FOR SABBATH, you are in the wrong place. If this guy is not answering you, maybe consider he is working on the project and cannot stop his whole life to answer your questions immediately like you seem to want. Or maybe he is like me and will not read the novel like posts you seem to send.
Just my .2
The reason you are not getting answers is that you are not asking the right questions. There are few if any members here who know this guy except Helstrm, who told you that YES he is a stand up guy, and Yes he is for real. If you are basically hoping someone here to say NO IT IS FAKE or YES LETS BUILD ONE NOW FOR SABBATH, you are in the wrong place. If this guy is not answering you, maybe consider he is working on the project and cannot stop his whole life to answer your questions immediately like you seem to want. Or maybe he is like me and will not read the novel like posts you seem to send.
Just my .2
07-10-2005, 12:18 AM
#54
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Wait, one more thing. Try doing a post search on SC and 944 na. There was a HUGE post on that one. I think maybe most of the Rennlisters are just a little tired of beating a dead horse. But here is the whip, beat a way man. Just do not expect a lot of input on how hard to hit it.
07-10-2005, 01:12 AM
#55
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I saw a 16v volvo head on a turbo ford 2.5L motor somewhere. I dont remember where. The reason it was done is it was close in design to the cosworth head on the turbo escorts.
07-17-2005, 01:14 PM
#56
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Well this ESC944 Guy is posting on the Pelican website as X3M944.
He posted some updates on both sites.
Says the 944 unit is basically done pending some tweaking as I read it. He also mentioned a universal kit for other cars. He apprently wants to do more testing and endurance stuff, since he mentioned driving around in the Florida Sun.
I am a little stoked, guess this guy is legit and this supercharger is for real. Man or man... if he starts making these... I cant wait to see what my car will be putting down at 6 PSI, add in that its lighter cause its a 924S. HEHEHE
Now I need to get a few things done on my car.
He posted some updates on both sites.
Says the 944 unit is basically done pending some tweaking as I read it. He also mentioned a universal kit for other cars. He apprently wants to do more testing and endurance stuff, since he mentioned driving around in the Florida Sun.
I am a little stoked, guess this guy is legit and this supercharger is for real. Man or man... if he starts making these... I cant wait to see what my car will be putting down at 6 PSI, add in that its lighter cause its a 924S. HEHEHE
Now I need to get a few things done on my car.
Last edited by Sabbath; 07-18-2005 at 03:46 AM.
09-28-2005, 06:19 PM
#57
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WELL BURN MY TOAST, he done posted a DIY KIT for 795.00... and with options and pics... I cant believe it! Thats incredible.... looks good too... Not sure about fabricating mounts and tensioner... but seems pretty solid... and universal. Crazy, course you have to worry about ignition and fuel... but seems like he covered that, a MSD 6 BTM or other and alcohol injection or an additional injector....
Guess I need to shut up and order one...
hemm lets see.... a winter project, wonder if we could do a group buy and get a cheaper price.....
ANYONE INTERESTED IN DOING A GROUP BUY?
Guess I need to shut up and order one...
hemm lets see.... a winter project, wonder if we could do a group buy and get a cheaper price.....
ANYONE INTERESTED IN DOING A GROUP BUY?
09-28-2005, 08:00 PM
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Mike I wish, then I would have his knowledge and all those cool parts. Nope I am just a 924S Owner, but since I found his posts, I keep an eye on them. In particular his supercharger stuff, but this guy or guys are all over the place with stuff, propane, efi, on and on. Just go to one of the sites and click on his profile check out all the posts. He is either a hack or brillant.
I still have my doubts about some of his crazy stuff, but putting a cheap supercharger on my 924S would be sweet. Just wish I could run it at the drag strip. Then again these cars are ment for that.
So tell me Mike, whats your concern?
I still have my doubts about some of his crazy stuff, but putting a cheap supercharger on my 924S would be sweet. Just wish I could run it at the drag strip. Then again these cars are ment for that.
So tell me Mike, whats your concern?