Vjgtrybno1

Tom,
Excellent points - the mechanic knew that it was a belt not a chain though. I will slow it down, but I have been exploring this purchase for a couple months now. Based on your input and others, I need to consider dropping the 17000 car until he drops the price. I was thinking that it would be nice to get a nearly new car - for far less than a 911, which I can't afford. I know these cars will run for over 200k miles, but how much wear could a 12,000 mile car have - assuming the engine was serviced and the seals replaced?

Tom R.

I dont agree fully with the statements that cars with 100+k run as good as new. I also dont put that much value in 20k vs 60k.

the cars are not collectibles and probably will never be collectibles. for 17k you can also get a 968.

get the lowdown on the 81k black car. list what was done in last three years, any accidents etc. knock a little off and it may be a good deal. I have a set of 17" boxster S rims with nice michelins that I will be selling soon. you can do an upgrade like that for the price of tires.

unless you are going to drive hi miles every year dont worry so much about the mileage.

the red one is interesting. was that a one owner car? if so check out the records, the price is not that high even needing the work. i did belts and tires on my gray one. dont need the water pump until it goes. the clutch is the $1400 time bomb waiting to explode on all these cars.

Vjgtrybno1

Tom,
Thanks again for your advice - I'm going to try to put it all in perspective.
Assuming the The black '90 S2 w/81k miles wasn't smoked in , it's a decent deal at 12,000
The red '89 with 75k miles that needs work is a good deal at 9900, but we might be looking at closer to 15000 to get it running well.
The '91 S2 -red 114k miles isn't worth 10,800 - is it the mileage or the timing chain comment that is causing you to value it so low? and what would be fair?
Then there are the two black 89's with low mileage(12 and 26k miles) - no way anyone pays 17 0r 18,000 for these puppies but what if I could get one of them for 13-14,000?
Thanks again for the education!

Porsche-O-Phile

As of right now I'd say the best for the money is the red one. The Ebay one is gorgeous - absolutely a time capsule but I think even so the owner is a little bit delusional about getting that price. For $15k I'd say it'd sell but I believe $18k to be a bit steep. . . Values are coming up though.
The second one seems definitely priced high for what it is - nice cars all though.

Mark944na86

Three points:

a) S2s have both a timing chain and a timing belt. The timing chain is under the rocker cover. The timing belt is at the front of the engine.

b) The problem with ultra-low mileage cars is that you definitely pay a premium for them (understandably), but unless you want to keep the car as a concourse "show" car, you will quickly erode the premium value by simply driving it. A mid mileage car is probably the sweet spot, in terms of value but also for the technical reasons mentioned above.

c) I respectfully disagree with Tom that no-one in their right mind would pay $18K for an unmolested, really nice example S2. While crummy 944s are dime-a-dozen, the really nice examples seems to be getting rarer all the time. Anything rare and desirable will become "collectable", almost by definition. Just because Tom wouldn't pay $18K for an example doesn't there aren't other (perhaps more discerning? sorry, Tom ) 944 enthusiasts out there.

BTW, overall, Tom really has no credibility in Porsche circles because he owns this disgusting hybrid Aussie goat. Peee-yuh.

-Mark

Mark944na86

Actually, it goes like this:

In 1989, they had four 944 models available: 2.7L NA (upgrade to the 2.5L NAs of previous years), 3.0L S2 coupe, 3.0L S2 Cabriolet, and the Turbo coupe (the 89 Turbo was upgraded to the 250 hp "Turbo S" spec of 1988; earlier Turbos 86-88 were ~220hp. Turbo cabs not released in US).

1n 1990, they dropped the 2.7L NA, and only the S2s and Turbo were available.

1991 (last year of production), line-up unchanged: S2s and Turbos.

Tom's got goat fever, I'm afraid!

-Mark

Edit: checking import figures, in 1990, only 15 944 Turbos were imported into Australia, but there were no Turbos imported into Australia in 1991. Perhaps they had stopped importing Turbos to the US by 1991 as well, in which case I might owe Tom an apology. He won't get one tho... goat owner!

Last edit: Kevin Gross' 944 FAQ http://www.connact.com/~kgross/FAQ/944faq03.html (which is well worth looking at for lots of other, more useful information) indicates that, in fact, of the 875 Turbos produced in 1991, none were imported into the US. However, in 1990, the US imported 144 of the 1251 Turbos produced. So in 1991, the last year of production, the S2s had effectively supplanted all other models, at least in the US market.

Tom R.

the red 89 for 8k -8.5k is right unless it has a LSD then add 500 to 1000. work the rest of your numbers from there.

the 8k assumes every body panel has the vin sticker, all paint is original, no salvage title etc.

got goat fever!! mark, i am pretty sure 89 was the last year for the turbo and it was the same as the 88 turbo S with the S2 replacing the regular tubo and 944s in the line up and the cabrio added.

Mark944na86

According the Kevin Gross' 944 FAQ, S2 cabs were (barely) introduced to the US in 1989, with 16 imported. 1990 saw 1824 S2 cabs imported to the US. Also according to Gross, 1385 Turbos imported in the US in 1989, only 144 in 1990, and 0 in 1991 (see "last edit" in my post above.)

-Mark

Tom R.

i bet the 144 turbos were 89 labeled at the factory as 90s. i think we have a few posts on one of the 89 cabrios. it really wasnt a cabrio but built as a cab, the inside of the engine bay is black, the car is a funky red....

18k, it just aint worth it. i paid 20k for the GTO in december. boxster, Z3, etc. all for around 18k.

Vjgtrybno1

Here's an interesting twist - the red 89 owner offers to do the maintenance - more properly pay a Porsche shop to replace the timing belt, water pump, the seals and put on dunlop tires but the price is 12,500 not 9900. He will warrant the car for 6 months up to 1500 in additional repairs. Is he that confident of no repairs or is he thinking there will be more things go wrong at 80,000 miles?

Meanwhile, Mr. Black 89 S2 with 12000 miles is down to 16,500. Decisions, decisions. I paid a third party mechanic to inspect it and it came back flawless except for the old mobile phone mount on the passenger side of the console.

Tom R.

start with my 8000 for the red one, at 12500 he is going to eat the car. i got 15k for mine when it was stolen. it had 75k miles, 928 12 way seats, koni yellows, boxster rims, new clutch, brakes, motor, etc.

have the work done yourself at 8k and what are you up to, then decide what 60k miles is worth to you.

the 89 may need a clutch soon also. it is the rubber center that deteriorates, not the disk that wears.

very often it is cheaper to pay more up front.

i think a road trip to philly with 15.5k cash in hand is due.

Mark944na86

The VIN numbers tell the story. A 1989 944 Turbo will have a 95KN1 VIN; a 1990 944 Turbo will have a 95LN1 VIN.

There were often subtle but tell-tale model year changes from year to year. For example (in Oz at least), the 1990 Turbos came with D90 7.5" and 9" wheels as standard, and had the new 968 style adjustable wing. I would expect the same held for the US imported models. The 968 style wing didn't make it onto the S2s until model year 1991.

I'm not sure exactly what you're saying here, but the 1989 cabs imported to the US are indeed rare -- 16 in all. From a practical point of view, it might be fair to consider 1990 as the effective introduction year for the S2 cab in the US market.

Apples and oranges, I think. What a collectable item is worth to a collector has little relation to the worth of items outside that narrow market. If you want a really nice example 944, you will have to look hard these days, much harder than you would for any of the other cars you mentioned. And I don't think it's going to get any easier.

But peace, bro. As a former S2 owner, I really can't give you too hard a time. You had good taste at one time, at least!

(Watch out for the anthrax...)

-Mark

My baby: 1990 S2 coupe, Black on Linen, 17" Turbo twists

Mighty Shilling

And Tom, one thing you may not know, our (Mostly) stock 1988 944 Turbo S ate a pair of GTO's on the track the other day! God I love these 17 year old cars! that has 54K on the clock. we got it for $15,000.00

Mark944na86

Sage words, and something we can definitely agree on.

-Mark

Mighty Shilling

as are these words:

"There is nothing more expensive than a cheap Porsche"