resurrecting early 85, need help
05-30-2005, 11:04 AM
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resurrecting early 85, need help
Patrick-87-944 and I picked up an early 85 with a parts car this weekend, in the hopes of saving another one from the crusher. PO, who turned out to be an idiot, told us that all that was wrong with it was the starter. For the price, OK, no problem, more could be wrong and we'd still be OK. Get her home, oil looks good, coolant is way low. Filled up the tank, good to go. Switch out starters, and she fires right up. Been sitting a few months, so it takes a few minutes for the lifters to quiet down, but otherwise, things are looking up. So we let her run in the garage for 10-15 minutes, bleeding the coolant, and then decide to take her around the block. 3/4 of the way (about a mile) at idle, the oil pressure light comes on, (at idle only, rev it and its fine) and she is running hot (but the ! light never came on). Limp her home and shut her down, as it was about 1am. Oil level is a little high, Coolant was gone. Filled back up, let cool down, started, and much white smoke from tailpipe. The next morning, couldn't get her to start so we start troubleshooting....(starting to think headgasket)
What we know:
spark at all 4.
pulled the injectors, all four are spraying
air filter was filthy, removed, so getting air
appears timed correctly, as OT mark and cam tower mark lined up
We did a compression test, and bad news. 1-4, 150, 110, 90, 120
Noticed when we had the plugs out and were turning the motor over, we were getting spray out the 2 and 3 plugs but nothing out the 1 and 4. We assumed it was gas, but now that I think about it, could the spray have been coolant?
Would a blown headgasket keep it from running like that, or is there something else we need to look at before pulling the head? Neither of us have ever done a headgasket before, so what other things do you look for when doing it, and how easy is it to tell where it has failed?
What we know:
spark at all 4.
pulled the injectors, all four are spraying
air filter was filthy, removed, so getting air
appears timed correctly, as OT mark and cam tower mark lined up
We did a compression test, and bad news. 1-4, 150, 110, 90, 120
Noticed when we had the plugs out and were turning the motor over, we were getting spray out the 2 and 3 plugs but nothing out the 1 and 4. We assumed it was gas, but now that I think about it, could the spray have been coolant?
Would a blown headgasket keep it from running like that, or is there something else we need to look at before pulling the head? Neither of us have ever done a headgasket before, so what other things do you look for when doing it, and how easy is it to tell where it has failed?
05-30-2005, 12:55 PM
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Were you observing any smoke out the tailpipe when it was running - particularly under load?
If so your diagnosis is pretty much confirmed - head gasket. If not, you still might be correct - the coolant is going somewhere. Any milkshake or evidence of oil in the coolant system?
If so your diagnosis is pretty much confirmed - head gasket. If not, you still might be correct - the coolant is going somewhere. Any milkshake or evidence of oil in the coolant system?
05-30-2005, 01:01 PM
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When the headgasket blew on my Turbo, the car wouldn't run. All your signs point to headgasket. FWIW, when mine went I didnt' have any milkshake or oil in cooling system. And the jobs not that difficult.
05-30-2005, 01:51 PM
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Did not observe the car under load. When we got the car back to the house that night, we topped off the coolant and started it, and did see a good bit of white smoke, which would indicate coolant. Was going to try to observe on the road the next morning, but couldn't get it started to take it out... 
No oil in the coolant, and no coolant in the oil.
Got a suggestion to take a look at a complete rebuild. Never attempted one, car has about 120K on it. Opinions on difficulty of full rebuild vs just a head gasket? Would like to try to keep the engine in the car if at all possible...
No oil in the coolant, and no coolant in the oil.
Got a suggestion to take a look at a complete rebuild. Never attempted one, car has about 120K on it. Opinions on difficulty of full rebuild vs just a head gasket? Would like to try to keep the engine in the car if at all possible...
06-03-2005, 10:05 AM
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4.5 hours and only 3 beers and the head is now off the motor ...the 2 center cylinders were 1/2 full of coolant...the gasket was very, very, very bad. I parted an '83 and the head gasket looked new compared to this one. What would cause so much degradation to the gasket that it would be literally disintegrating?
Also I broke the small 6 mm Allen head bolts at the front of the cylinder head. (step 10 on Clark’s procedure)
I think that I can get it out and I may have a replacement, but what a pain in the a$$.
...the 2 center cylinders were 1/2 full of coolant...the gasket was very, very, very bad. I parted an '83 and the head gasket looked new compared to this one. What would cause so much degradation to the gasket that it would be literally disintegrating? Also I broke the small 6 mm Allen head bolts at the front of the cylinder head. (step 10 on Clark’s procedure)
I think that I can get it out and I may have a replacement, but what a pain in the a$$.
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06-03-2005, 04:16 PM
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Some helpful suggestions
If the oil doesn't look like chocolate milk and/or if you can confirm it only ran for a few minutes with oil that looks like chocolate milk, skip the rebuild. That is a lot more work and money to do properly, and unless the engine was badly abused, it won't really need it. You can always change the rod bearings with the engine in the car, and that more or less just leaves you with the mains and piston rings to worry about, neither of which should be worn to the point of needing a rebuild on a car with 120k miles. "Don't fix it if it isn't broken." It takes a lot of investment in tools and machine shop service to do it as well as the factory in terms of tolerances, etc.
When changing the head, here are a few things to be careful about:
1) THE METAL OF THE 6MM ALLEN HEAD BOLTS IS VERY SOFT! Be careful and take your time loosening them. Use Kroil or PB Blaster on the bolts way in advance, and buy an actual socket with a 6mm bit in it so you can better keep it square in the bolt and get good leverage with the wrench. The extra long 6mm bolt on the front water outlet is a real tricky one to get out without breaking. Good luck.
2) USE THE ALLEN WRENCH WITH THE RUBBER CUP FROM THE CAR'S TOOL KIT TO EXTRACT THE 6MM ALLEN BOLTS FROM INSIDE THE CAM COVER. And for when you put them back in. That's what it is there for, so you don't drop them inside!
3) LOOSEN THE HEAD BOLTS IN THE REVERSE SEQUENCE OF THE TORQUING SEQUENCE FOR INSTALLATION. Going in the opposite order of installing the head, start by breaking each one loose, then giving each one a quarter or maybe half turn, then loosening each one more. If some goon on here chimes in and says that this is not necessary, ignore him; Loosening the bolts like this will minimize the chances of warping the head, and it may save you some $$ by not having to have it shaved.
4) To "break loose" the head itself once all the bolts are out, there is a thick but stubby metal tab, I think near the front of the head near the water pump, or thereabouts. It is there for you to shove some kind of pry bar and gently pry the head loose from the gasket.
5) When you pull the head off or put it back on, try to not let the round cam follower thingies fall out. You want to keep them in the same order as they were. Don't let them fall out and get mixed up. As soon as you have the head loose, before you lift it off, shove a piece of cardboard or something under the head and lift it off holding that under it so the cam followers don't fall out.
6) While you have the head off, CHANGE THE OIL COOLER SEALS. This might very well be the messiest job you ever do on this car, and even with the head off you will still have to reach into funny places from above and below, but imagine doing it with the head on. It is only another $25 or so for the seal kit, and this is something that, if it has not already been done to the car, will need to be done soon. Take lots of extra time to make sure that the housing and cooler are perfectly clean and free of oil (every time you think it is clean, more oil will seep out of a crevice somewhere), so that you get a good seal when you bolt it back together. Spring for the $15 or whatever it is for the alignment tool, and be very sensitive and precise with it.
7) For any of the 6mm allen bolts, if the internal hex shape is the least bit distorted from removing it, throw it away and replace it. When you get replacements, try to get replacements that are the same grade as the originals. Most places that carry these odd bolts will only have a much harder grade (usually blackened). These harder bolts may be stronger and are still usable for the job, but they do not have the flex/stretch properties of the lower grade bolts that Porsche used. If you want to get really particular, the flex/stretch properties of the lower grade bolts are better suited because they take to the heat expansion of the aluminum engine components better. The great thing about the 944 and other Porsches is that the engineers chose all the materials for suitability rather than for "which one is the least expensive". If the harder grade bolt were better-suited for the application, they would have used it.
Cheers,
Tony
When changing the head, here are a few things to be careful about:
1) THE METAL OF THE 6MM ALLEN HEAD BOLTS IS VERY SOFT! Be careful and take your time loosening them. Use Kroil or PB Blaster on the bolts way in advance, and buy an actual socket with a 6mm bit in it so you can better keep it square in the bolt and get good leverage with the wrench. The extra long 6mm bolt on the front water outlet is a real tricky one to get out without breaking. Good luck.
2) USE THE ALLEN WRENCH WITH THE RUBBER CUP FROM THE CAR'S TOOL KIT TO EXTRACT THE 6MM ALLEN BOLTS FROM INSIDE THE CAM COVER. And for when you put them back in. That's what it is there for, so you don't drop them inside!
3) LOOSEN THE HEAD BOLTS IN THE REVERSE SEQUENCE OF THE TORQUING SEQUENCE FOR INSTALLATION. Going in the opposite order of installing the head, start by breaking each one loose, then giving each one a quarter or maybe half turn, then loosening each one more. If some goon on here chimes in and says that this is not necessary, ignore him; Loosening the bolts like this will minimize the chances of warping the head, and it may save you some $$ by not having to have it shaved.
4) To "break loose" the head itself once all the bolts are out, there is a thick but stubby metal tab, I think near the front of the head near the water pump, or thereabouts. It is there for you to shove some kind of pry bar and gently pry the head loose from the gasket.
5) When you pull the head off or put it back on, try to not let the round cam follower thingies fall out. You want to keep them in the same order as they were. Don't let them fall out and get mixed up. As soon as you have the head loose, before you lift it off, shove a piece of cardboard or something under the head and lift it off holding that under it so the cam followers don't fall out.
6) While you have the head off, CHANGE THE OIL COOLER SEALS. This might very well be the messiest job you ever do on this car, and even with the head off you will still have to reach into funny places from above and below, but imagine doing it with the head on. It is only another $25 or so for the seal kit, and this is something that, if it has not already been done to the car, will need to be done soon. Take lots of extra time to make sure that the housing and cooler are perfectly clean and free of oil (every time you think it is clean, more oil will seep out of a crevice somewhere), so that you get a good seal when you bolt it back together. Spring for the $15 or whatever it is for the alignment tool, and be very sensitive and precise with it.
7) For any of the 6mm allen bolts, if the internal hex shape is the least bit distorted from removing it, throw it away and replace it. When you get replacements, try to get replacements that are the same grade as the originals. Most places that carry these odd bolts will only have a much harder grade (usually blackened). These harder bolts may be stronger and are still usable for the job, but they do not have the flex/stretch properties of the lower grade bolts that Porsche used. If you want to get really particular, the flex/stretch properties of the lower grade bolts are better suited because they take to the heat expansion of the aluminum engine components better. The great thing about the 944 and other Porsches is that the engineers chose all the materials for suitability rather than for "which one is the least expensive". If the harder grade bolt were better-suited for the application, they would have used it.
Cheers,
Tony
06-03-2005, 04:29 PM
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Tony,
thanks for the info...th head came off last night with only one bad thing happening. I twisted the head off the short hex bolt closest to the intake at the front of the head. The lifters stayed in and the head came loose with only minor prying at the edges due to the condition of the gasket.
thanks for the info...th head came off last night with only one bad thing happening. I twisted the head off the short hex bolt closest to the intake at the front of the head. The lifters stayed in and the head came loose with only minor prying at the edges due to the condition of the gasket.
06-03-2005, 11:39 PM
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So there is a partial bolt sticking out of the block, with its head snapped off?
If this is the case, and there is some of it still sticking out, needle nose vise grips clamped real hard might get it loose. That will actually be stronger than the head of the bolt was. Cover the mating surfaces on the engine with something so you don't scratch them.
If not enough (i.e. less than maybe .75 cm) of bolt is sticking out, you may have to drill it (get a bit specifically for steel) and put an "easy out" in it. Just understand that you will have to suck out the combustion chambers and coolant passages completely with a shop vac to get any chips, etc. out . . . . no biggie..
If this is the case, and there is some of it still sticking out, needle nose vise grips clamped real hard might get it loose. That will actually be stronger than the head of the bolt was. Cover the mating surfaces on the engine with something so you don't scratch them.
If not enough (i.e. less than maybe .75 cm) of bolt is sticking out, you may have to drill it (get a bit specifically for steel) and put an "easy out" in it. Just understand that you will have to suck out the combustion chambers and coolant passages completely with a shop vac to get any chips, etc. out . . . . no biggie..
06-05-2005, 11:03 AM
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I am going to try the vise grips first-I hope that works. I am then going to swap some parts from the parts car and see if it will rice from the dead after the gasket kit gets here
06-26-2005, 12:08 AM
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After the new head gasket and other stuff required to put it back together I got it fired a few hours ago 
it now runs, sounds great, no crap out the tail pipes, and fires right up.......now for the bad news....it is always something.....The water pump does not work and the fans do not cut on, so it gets hot very quickly.....so how bad is the water pump to do right after a head gasket job, I know I need more beer-the gasket job was a case 
and what about the fans if it is electrical I may need help 
from the list.
it now runs, sounds great, no crap out the tail pipes, and fires right up.......now for the bad news....it is always something.....The water pump does not work and the fans do not cut on, so it gets hot very quickly.....so how bad is the water pump to do right after a head gasket job, I know I need more beer-the gasket job was a case and what about the fans if it is electrical I may need help from the list.