Bret 944

SCCA season just now starting, and I'm going to be driving the '84 944 throughout the season hopefully. I've got a few questions I'd like answered if possible. Here goes:

1. Which class would the 944 be more competitive, ES or CSP.

2. What is basically the most you can get out of an ES car, i.e. can you run R-compunds, change suspension, etc ?

3. What's the best things to do to make the car competitive in CSP ?

4. Anyone know the best Autocross tire for under $100/tire ?

5. What tire sizes are best ? I'm running 16" Fuchs on the car, should fronts and rears be the same size tire, or different like on the stock Turbo's ? I'm thinking 225/50/16 all around, sound okay ?

Thanks for the help guys, my first real year in autocross, maybe by the end of the year I'll be at least a little competitive.

M758

1) Probably better to run in ES vs CSP, but it not competitive in either.
So it really depends on your class competition.

2) In ES you have open shocks, and FRONT sway bar only. You can however align the car to you hearts content. This mean anything you can get with the stock parts. So figure about 2.5 deg negative camber front. and 2.5 rear. Springs & rear sway bar MUST BE STOCK.

3) Not sure of all the rules, but spring are open for sure.

4) Autocross tire under 100? Well they will all SUCK. In ES you can run R-compounds This mean Hoosier Autocross tires are common for competitive cars. I think the new Kumho V710 may me close to the hoosier in terms of grip and short life. None of these tires are "cheap"

5) Size... 225/50 R15 or 225/45 R15 Yep that is 15" wheels. Samller diameter means more revs at each road speed and lightest tires and probably wheel as well. You can run 15x7" front and 15x8" rear. As these were options. You MAY be able to run 15x8" in front, but not sure.

Riff

Agree with everything Joe says above. Only thing I could tell you is about the tires. For only $100 per, you might find someone's older R-compounds, but you won't find new for that price unless it is a distress sale.

Have fun

Bret 944

Thanks Joe, helpful so far.

1. So, basically these cars are never going to be competitive in an Autocross. That sure throws out the whole reason for the classification system. Maybe it should be moved to like FS or GS or something.

2. What do you mean by "open shocks". Can I put any springs I want up front but have to leave the struts alone ?

4. Sweet, R-compounds are probably the way to go then, since this car should be 100% track this year, no street duty.

5. The car already has the 16" Fuchs (16x7 all around i believe) on there. Do you know if they will be legal to run in ES ? Also, I've heard that they are lighter than the 15" cookes that came on the car. I may just keep on there if they're legal.

Thanks again man, I'm just a Solo2 noob, trying to get into it first, then maybe on to bigger better things like Solo1.

Z-man

My recommendations:

1. Run in the stock ES class. As a newbie, you are still learning how to autocross. Don't waste your $$ on 'go fast' goodies until you learn how to drive and what type of upgrades will suit your driving style best. It is far better to gain a good understanding of what YOU like in terms of handling vs. buying a lot of suspension goodies, and then finding out they really don't work with your driving style. Also: if you MUST upgrade, take baby steps - upgrade only one component at a time. Then, if you find your new setup doesn't work for you, you know exactly what you did and can easily undo it. If you upgrade 3-4 things at once, it will take you more time and effort to discover what piece of the puzzle is not working for you.

2. Forget about the R-compounds. Run with a good high performance street tire. It will teach you MORE than if you go with R's right away. Too many people jump to R's before learning how to drive. Sticky rubber has a wonderful way to masking your mistakes.

3. The biggest key to autox is SEAT TIME. The second biggest key is also SEAT TIME. For keys three through 100, see key one. Forget about the rest - get some seat time under your belt before you start worrying about upgrades. Upgrading the DRIVER gives you the best bang for the buck.

4. Forget about focusing on winning. LEARN TO DRIVE FIRST! Focus on car control, vehicle dynamics, understanding how your car handles and what you, as a driver, need to do to get around the course quickly. If you focus on the proper things, winning will come as a by-product. However, if you focus on winning, the by-product won't be becoming a better driver. If you also focus on having a good time, you will gain much more out of the whole autox experience! Don't get me wrong - friendly compeition is wonderful, but I've seen too many people lose sight of what autocross is due to their egos and their 'lust' to win.

Bottom line: as a new autocrosser, you are too worried about the upgrades to the car, and you're not paying attention to the most important thing - YOU, as the driver needs to improve before being able to effectively use the upgrade goodies.

Personally, I waited until half-way through the THIRD season of autocross before upgrading any suspension. And then, all I did was add a thicker rear sway bar (legal for stock classes in PCA autocross, BTW). And it was only half-way through my FOURTH season of autocross before making the switch to R-compounds.

Just my $0.42,
-Z-man.

M758

1) Life Sucks...

2) Open = free = anything you want. Super competitive national guys will have $5000 shocks in a the stock classes. Spring MUST STAY STOCK.

3) Tires = R tire are basicly REQUIRED in a stock class. You will be 2-3 seconds off the pace not matter how good you are the car is without them.
Is the car track only or autocross only? If you plan to use it for DE then a nice DE set-up is not the same as an optimal Autocross set-up. A car set-up for stock autocross will be running hoosiers. The west possible that fit on 7" or 8" wheels. If you can cram a 235 or 245 it might be good. I know that a 245 on 7" wheel is dumb, but guys do this all the time for autocross since grip is so important. You may also need things like tow OUT... Yes tow out will wear the tires down and make the car nearlly impossible to control at DE, but making it rotate in an autocross is critical. If you are stuck with stock spring then you do radial things like tow out and hope it works.

4) Wheels... 16x7 fuchs are still heavier than 15x7 fuchs. Wheel type is open so you can get any super light 15" wheel that fits. I know 7" wide wheels are legal all around. 8" are legal in rear since they were an option, but not sure if you can use these in front. Probably not. So... get 15x7 front and 15x8 rears. For balance you should run the same tire size front and rear, but for max grip may be the most tire you can fit on the wheel and then use rear toe out to get the car to rotate. Only use 16" wheels if you are running out of 2nd gear. If they allow a chip in that class (not sure) then it is great not to make power, but rev it a little father to stay in 2nd if you need it.


PS... if you want to be competitive in autocross especially in a stock class it takes some weird things. Crazy sub optimization ($5k shocks) and crazy aligmen (rear toe out) just make the car fast. Heck some folks even take advantage fo the front sway bar rule. Normal logic says a stiffer front bar only adds understeer and understeer is a very bad thing in a autocross. However given the body roll of alot of stock cars one school of twisting autocross logic is to add on a massive front bar to reduce the body roll and then try use aligment settings liek rear tow out to crate oversteer to couteract the understeer from the sway bar.

Now on the other hand if this car is DE car that you plan on autocrossing then set-up is VASTLY different. Simply put build the car as fun DE car and deal with poor classing in autocross.

What you do depends on priorities as you can't have competitive car in both, but you can have one that is very good for one and "gets by" in the other.

PS... even without class rules to worry about my 944 is not an optimal autocrosser. The reason is my aligment setting are for the track and not perfect for autocross. Since track is my #1, I would either need to constantly adjust it (too much work) or just deal with it in autocross. I chose to deal with it.

M758

PS...what Z-man posted is the RIGHT WAY to learn and have fun. I posted to you the info you need to make the CAR competitive. These are two different things. Remember a competitive car will still be slow with an unskilled driver. In fact a box stock car can be much faster than a "competitive car" with good driver.

I actually ran quite well in PCA autocross with a junkyard stock 83 944 running ok street tires and a who knows what aligment. I beat quite a few "faster" cars. I was often in the top 2-3 cars on street tires, beating all kinds of new Porsches and even a few on R-tires. That was all due to driver skill.

Bret 944

Thanks guys, lots of info there. At least for this season, the car will be strictly autocross, no DE's yet. It's kind of a project thing with my dad and I, he's never raced cars before, only motorcycles. We're both kind of trying to get into it.

Tires will most likely be some sort of take-offs from the local shop around here, Autometrics. My dad knows those guys pretty well, so a good deal on some slightly used tires should be no problem.

As far as setup goes then, I'll probably just keep suspension stock for now. Probably will have Autometrics do an alignment and that's it.

One last thing, what are the rules on the catalytic converter ? You guys know ? Being an '84 I'm sure that thing is clogged to say the least, can I just have it replaced with some pipe ? No emissions laws around here if that means anything.

M758

If you have you heart set on SCCA autocross go to their website. I believe all the rules are avalible as of this year for free download. Then just scan through. I do believe that cats are required in a stock class. Honestly I doubt the cat is in bad shape however.

xsboost90

ive always run csp, because the es class is not real competitive. CSP is full of miatas and 944's and the 924 ran right w/ them w/ turbosways, welt 200lb springs and kuhmo victoracers. There were a couple of miatas that were untouchable though, but they had alot of money and my car is basically stock. Just race and try to get better, dont worry about other guys. Race pca and youll feel like a race car driver, much less competitive there, but fun. Never say never though, i saw a 928 take FTD on the tightest couse ive ever driven. it was baaaad.

Jason_86_951

I always thought that Porsche's were excluded form the street prepared classes?
I've always ran in BP, as I remeber reading the all the SP classes were offlimits to a Porsche.

xsboost90

not in ohio! me and a bunch of miatas.

Jason_86_951

My bad, I guess I haven't read the rules in a few years. I just looked it up:
Oh joy I get to run against the newer Vettes..........weee.

ASP Porsche 911 AWD Turbo 911 Club Sport (to 3.2L) 911 GT2 ('02+)
ASP 911 GT3 911 Turbo & 930 (to 3.3L) 911 Turbo & Turbo S (3.6L air cooled)
ASP 911 non-turbo (3.6L air cooled) 911 non-turbo (to 3.2L) 914/6 (all)
ASP 924 Turbo 944 (16V) 944 Turbo
ASP 968 Boxster Carrera 2
ASP Carrera 4
BSP Porsche 928
CSP Porsche 356 & 1600 924S & 944 (8V) Carrera 4 cyl (all)
Porsche stock:
BS 356, Carrera 4 cam HS 356, except Carrera
AS 911 (993 chassis) non-turbo ('95-'98) SS 911 (996 chassis) ('98+)
SS 911 (997 chassis) ('05+) SS 911 Turbo, 930 (2WD)
BS 911, Club Sport BS 911, non-turbo, NOC
HS 912 BS 914/6
CS 914: 1.7, 1.8 & 2.0 L ES 924 Turbo, Audi engine
HS 924, Audi engine ES 924S
BS 928 (all) BS 944 (16V)
ES 944 8v BS 944 Turbo (all)
BS 968 SS Boxster S
AS Boxster non-S BS Carrera 2, Carrera 4 (964 chassis)

xsboost90

pca has changed its rules all around this year, so my cars would both be in stock classes.

joseph mitro

regarding alignment, i just had my car aligned today. i used coilovers at all four corners and lowered the car down to 25" at each wheelarch after reindexing the torsion bars. i asked my garage to give me a good alignment for both autocross and DE. here's what i got:

front: -2.0 camber, 1/16" toe out
rear: -2.7 camber, 1/16" toe out


what do you think? car seems to rotate easily just on driving it back home and on some twisties.