944_S_TYPE

He guys, and gals, I plan to do some out of chasis engine maintenance on my 1987 "S" I will be replacing front and rear seals, water pump, (did belts and rollers 2,000mi ago) clutch and a few other things. HERE IS THE BIG QUESTION: Every once and a while I hear a little lifter noise, I am sure it is the lifters, I have used lifter lube and they quiet down. but, if the car sits they make noise for a couple days then quiet down. Sorry this is so long winded, THE MAIN QUESTION IS, I want to change the lifters that are not pumping up, but I am scared to remove the cams If I do not have to. I am a aircraft mechanic and pretty mechanically inclined, BUT, I do not have any dial instruments. What will it cost me to have someone reinstall cams...Or can I do it myself? SHOULD I EVEN BOTHER? I have a new cam chain and will be changing tensioner while I am in there. Any help?

joseph mitro

i am not a guru (and i'm not sure you need to change the lifters), but here's how i did it:

1. rotate engine to TDC, install flywheel lock
2. ensure that TDC mark on the flywheel matches TDC mark on the camshaft. they should be no more than a 1/2 tooth off
3. remove timing belt
4. remove the rotor (it points up when at TDC) and NOTE the POSITION of the rotor on the camshaft pulley. in other words, the camshaft pulley has three slots (not holes) for the rotor to insert through. this provides about 10 degrees of rotation for the rotor. on my car, the rotor was at the extreme clockwise end of the slots. you can probably see the rotor marks on the camshaft pulley after removing the rotor. this will help you correctly reinstall the rotor on reassembly
5. remove camshaft pulley and associated bits.
6. remove camshaft bridges (f and r) and camshaft bearing bridges.
7. remove camshafts with chain intact after removing the tensioner.
8. on reassembly, make sure the cams are in time with each other by aligning the two small cast lugs on the backside of each sprocket. look at the photos in my website in my signature to see exactly what i mean. reinstall the cams with these lugs facing up and the cams will be installed for TDC
9. reassemble everything in reverse. as long as the engine is not rotated and flywheel lock is left in place, it should all go back together the way it is at TDC.

my engine seems to work well and i did not need the dial indicators. even my mechanic said it should be fine and felt fine when he drove it.

email me with any questions

EDITED 2/10/05 - please see this thread for further details. briefly, you need the cams to be professionally timed.

EDIT - here's a pic of the camshaft lugs you must line up when reinstalling the cams, so they are set to TDC (red arrows)

IMB951

I've been told the lifter tapping is perfectly normal for a 16 valve 944 that sits long between drives. Once you warm the car up, and get it through the powerband once or twice the lifters get that extra bit of oil and the tapping will stop. I'm certainly no 16 valve guru, but if it's time to change the cam chain, then by all means do so (Joesph can certainly agree with me here). I would go ahead and pull the valve cover if you have the engine out of the car anyway and peek around. I wouldn't mess with the lifters if you don't have to take the camshafts out to replace the chain/tensioner. I don't know what all is involved because I let my mechanic handle it when I had the tensioner done, there are too many measurments and variables that I could screw up

my87944s

There are almost no variables to address when doing the tensioner... I am quite the novice when it comes to DIY on P-Cars, and I got mine out the other day in under an hour... Now Im just waiting for the new pad so that I can out it back in. Now replacing lifters is another story... I wouldnt touch that with for all the tea in Singapore!

joseph mitro

i thought it was complicated, too. but it's actually quite simple. just line everything up like i described and you should be good to go.

Jfrahm

Since the cams have to come out to do the cam chain, you can easily replace lifters while you are in there. You might consider just having the head rebuilt, if you are so far along that your cam chain is tired it'd be silly to get in there and not do the valve guides/seals, head gasket, and a valve job as well.
Reinstalling the cams can be done without a dial indicator if you carefully mark the position of the sprocket when you take everthing apart, but dial indicators are dirt cheap at Harbor Freight and I have a way of getting it done with only one indicator.

Personally I'd just change the top pad unless you have startup smoke and stuff like that. Do the cam chain and lifters when the head could stand refreshing.

-Joel.

Dal Heger

If you're gonna take the cams off, remember to do it very carefully. Loosen the bolts in sequence 1/4 turn at a time. The last thing you want to do is break the cams.

If you have the cams out it would be stupid not to replace the cam chain. it stretches over time and can quickly wear the teeth on the cams. They will get a very scalloped look to them, very sharp and "peaky" I'll try to find picts to explain.

As for lifters, even new ones will tap from time to time. When I replaced my head, I went with everything new, and it still taps from time to time. If it goes away, then I wouldn't worry about it.

Dal.

sharky47

Here's a question while were on the topic, are the 944S cams the same as any of the 928 cams?

joseph mitro

i don't think so, dan. you can clearly see a 944 part number on my photo above

944_S_TYPE

Cool, Thanks guys. I am pretty bummed. I just had the motor out about 2,ooo mi ago. I changed all the rollers, belts and most of the engine sensors. Now the front seals are dripping and I am going to replace the clutch. I have a nice shop so I just plan to pull the motor and take my time and do the waterpump, oil pan gasket, and clutch. I just figured I would adress the lifters while the motor was so accessable. But I think I'LL JUST LEAVE THEM ALONE. The car runs awsome and smooth when it is warmed up.
Thanks again

Jfrahm

How many miles are on it? If you have the engine out it's not that big a deal to go after the head.

-Joel.

944_S_TYPE

About 150,000 I think the head has been rebuilt by the P.O.

Jfrahm

Oh, then I would not mess with it.

-Joel.

Danno

Try some valve-lifter cleaner by BG. It's the best stuff around. Recommended by Mitsubishi for their Eclipses, which use a tiny thumb-sized lifter that gets clogged easily.

944_S_TYPE

Cool, Thanks can I get it at any auto parts store?