seaaggiedallas

I wanted to pick some brains here on some setup options. I'm building an outlaw 83' 944, I have an entire donor car from a s2 cabriolet (non-M030). Engine head is ported and polished with some hotter web cams and will be mated to the s2 trans. All of that is largely understood, but I'm struggling with figuring out the best way forward for my suspension and braking setup.

I have a set of platinum 16inch turbo Fuchs, and it is a non-negotiable that they will end up on the car. So I'm trying to run early offset with the entire s2 suspension and brake setup. As far as I understand, I can swap everything, but I will need to run camber mounts to the strut top to maintain any camber. I cannot find a reliable source anywhere that tells me this will give me enough camber. I'm not thrilled about modifying early style struts to make it work. Has anyone actually attempted this with positive results?

As far as suspension setup, I was thinking 200 lb springs, 26mm torsion bars, MO30 sways front and rear, and koni inserts. I've never personally experienced this setup, but it seems that 250 lbs springs is just too aggressive for true daily duty. This car will not only do track days, but will drive from Texas to 944 fest, I'm not trying to rattle my brain on the way up. This will be an occasional track car, but mostly my daily driver. Will koni inserts work in the stock S2 strut housings ? Or did Konis have a specific strut housing for cars with that option?

Thanks

walfreyydo

To be clear, I have an S2 and have not done this conversion persay, but heres some info regardless that will apply to your question.

In terms of the wheel fitment, the only way you are going to be able to run early offset wheels on a late offset car is with negative camber. Expecting them to fit at OEM camber settings is a fools errand, so go into this know you will need to run significant negative camber. I am currently running early offset 16" phone dials (23.3 et) on my S2, but its setup for track and has about -2 to -2.5 degrees of camber front/rear. No spacers or anything like that. I also had them widened to 9" square setup from the original 7"/8" widths (retains same front spacing but increased back spacing) for autox/track mainly. Weldcraft wheels did exceptional work in that regard. Note that I was able to fit these wheels without the need for camber plates-the OEM camber adjustment was able to achieve the negative camber needed-especially on the front.

I have more/better photos of the fitment at home, send me a PM if youd like more info. I adjusted camber until they came right up the fenders but just far enough to prevent rubbing.

Suspension: 400# front, 600# rear coilover conversion (torsion bar delete) and its well balanced (after my last track day at Blackhawk Farms I think its almost perfect). These spring weights are a good and aggressive track/autox setup that is still streetable (but on the stiffer side, also very subjective). If keeping the torsion bar then you need to calculate your (wheel) spring rates while also considering the torsion bar rate, but recommending something around 300/500-550, or 400/600-650 spring rates, but again, this is subjective. I am running the coilover conversion TB delete from Paragon which has Koni yellow adjustable struts/shocks. Its been great. Torsion bar rates can be found here and here (some say the wheel rate on this page is wrong, that it needs to be squared, but rear effective modifier is somewhere between 0.45 and 0.56 depending on who you ask) - again, a ton of threads on this, in particular look for the thread from @Van in which he goes through all the measurements to determine effective wheel rates.

You want to shoot for equal wheel rates front and rear and fine tune your sway bars (and/or rebound adjustment on the Konis) for oversteer/understeer. Wheel rates are calculated due to the need to consider the leverage the suspension geometry has in order to calculate wheel rates (lots of threads on this if you search). Its important to know the difference between spring rates vs wheel rates and calculate accordingly - its all based on the leverage the suspension design has on the springs, rear has more leverage (again, about 0.56 but there is debate) than the fronts (about 0.90 modifier). Hence 400F/600R = about 330 front/rear

Also running powerflex poly bushings at every possible location. I felt this was a better bargain/longevity over monoballs. Stock sway bars, 26.5mm front, 16mm rear (although this may change). Stock brembos with high heat pads, oem sebro rotors


In terms of your conversion, if you are swapping everything over it should be fine. The hubs/control arms/struts/rear trailing arms, s2 upper strut mounts, brakes and longer S2 axles all need to be brought over. Having a donor car will make this a breeze. Your car will now be a "late offset" car after thats done. I think there is also some info on how to mount a late 944 trans (ie: s2 trans) on an early car by modifying the mount or crossmember if you search. Trans mounts vary for early vs late cars. There is also the issue with speedometer.

Van

I think walfreyydo is pointing you in the right direction. The Fuchs will not work with the S2 suspension/brakes/offset. Your best bet is to trade all of that for an '86 turbo suspension/brakes.

I think 200 front springs and 28mm torsion bars will probably be fine on the street.

willrobinson

The rear will be no problem, you just need the 86 hubs and brake discs to essentially make it an 86, alloy arms but early offset. For the front you may need to get hubs made up like the early style where the disc bolts to the back of the hub. You could probably use the 930 turbo big discs as these were fitted under Fuchs from factory.

harveyf

Just as a general statement, you can run springs and rear torsion bars on the softer side of things and run stiffer front and rear sway bars. The sway bars resist body lean but don't affect your "down the highway" ride as much. There are best possible lap times on a track and there is comfort going down the road. Rarely do they result in the same setup. I sense that for an outlaw, you are not as interested in lap times as you are in stance, etc. Do you really need to run the S2 suspension? If you mimic the M030 suspension with your original suspension as a starting point, I think you will be plenty satisfied with the cornering and it would appear you can avoid the issues noted above.

My website, linked below, has articles on 2 cars you might want to look at. One I called a 944R, a 1984 car.
https://newhillgarage.com/porsche-94...44-street-car/

The other was my full on track car, an early 1985. It had the 350 lb front springs, as part of a setup a lot of 944Spec guys were running. It was street legal (barely) and would shake your fillings out going down a road with joints in the pavement, which describes the road leading from my house.
https://newhillgarage.com/category/p...944-track-car/

As an aside, I own a 86 928 that the sticker shows coming with platinum wheels. By the time I got it, someone had thrown away the platinum wheels, and put on 18" 3 piece aftermarket wheels. I am not sure I have ever seen platinum wheels in the wild. So if you have them, that is very cool, and will set you apart. If you know someone that can refinish silver wheels to OEM platinum, I would love to have the contact.

Good luck,
Harvey

V2Rocket

for the front the offset is determined by the control arm length, and the camber by the strut mount/spindle.

use the S2 front knuckles with early offset arms (the ones already on your 83 car).

i think people in the past say that you can still get around 1-1.5 degrees negative with the standard early strut mount, which is ok for a street car. or get an adj upper mount to get more.

for the rear you can keep the 83 suspension and use an 86 turbo brake disc and the 2mm spacer washer to mount the s2 caliper. although using the S2 rear suspension will save 15-20lbs because of the alum. trailing arms. you could swap the hub on the S2 trailing arm for an 85-86 alum arm variant which is still an early offset hub.

harveyf

Let's be clear. Negative camber applied to tires that like camber i.e. "track tires" will result in improved lap times. If that is your main success metric, go for it. But it is not something I would neccesarily strive for on a combination street/track car. There are negative side effects. BTW, if you want to lower your car, you can do so with shorter "lowering" springs in the front. In the rear, you can reset the torsion bars to lower the rear the same amount as the front. This will automatically give the rear tires a negative camber. At the front, to get beyond the stock camber limits, you will have to go with aftermarket adjustable camber plates.

T&T Racing

MO30 sways front and rear are not compatible with early offset steel lower control arms.

joseph mitro

see my Carrera GT build thread for details. i used Fuchs on an 87 924 but there are some problems.
are you swapping parts into the S2 chassis or swapping S2 suspension on the early car?
1. if your speedo is cable driven, you'll lose that
2. you won't have ABS in the 83 car

if you need large brakes for an early car, look for 86 944 turbo control arms, spindles, rotors, calipers, etc
if you use the S2 suspension and hope to run Fuchs, it's not going to fit well. offset will be off, stance will be off, scrub radius will increase etc

V2Rocket

I have a front brake setup I came up with, that’s for sale, that will out-brake stock S2 stuff.

it bolts to the early spindle/hub and fits under early offset 15” wheels so your 16 would be no problem.

PM me if interested.