So, um, my avatar is a reference to crab lice in a womans pubic hair, did you all realize that and is that offensive?

 

Tom:
I don't think you should leave based on this thread or the whole avatar issue.

John D has spoken (in his usual deep, thundering god-like baritone voice) and has drawn the line in terms of how to deal with all this.

I have seen some avatars change to less revealing ones, which I myself appreciate.

As for those who are attacking you personally, I would ignore them. For one thing, personal attacks aren't allowed here, and if someone posts enough of them, they'll be in greater trouble with the powers that be than if they posted an objectionable avatar.

However, I say let them blow off some steam. They are like the angry kid whose ball was taken away now. Then simply ignore them if they continue to offend you. Eventually, they will stop the whinning.

To leave Rennlist over the avatar battle is over-reacting, IMHO.

Besides, we didn't kick you out when you got your Camaro, so why should you leave now?!?

In a few days, people will again wonder how to spell avatar. So relax, chill, the battle's over.

-Z-man.

 

Yea, but manning at a casual glance nobody would even notice what it was, let alone what it meant. Mine (former) on the other hand was rather, um hard to miss.

 

Interesting - seems they're having the same issue in Missouri:
http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/Central/0....ap/index.html

-Z.

 

Tom, if its any consolation, I feel about the same way you do in regards to this issue. Its amazing to me to see the responses! Different strokes for different folks I guess. Yes I'm at the point where the "box" will be getting checked here also......Oh well. I also happen to think some of the signatures are getting a little long and outta hand too, but, thats me. Though I must admit, I will have to look from time to time to see who is "one uping the other", and who's got the guts/the lack of respect/whos just a wild and crazy guy having fun!

Its has also been very interesting to see who responds in what manner on some of this also. Last I looked at the poll, it said about 10% voting for the "I don't care what ya think" choice. I really want to believe that those were ones just making a statement, and not really serious votes. Kinda sad (for them) if they really feel that way huh?

I'm glad ya started this thread Tom! I bet this one will have people stirred up for days..........atta boy! Time will tell how this all goes! Hang around Tom!........This is gonna get even gooder (I can feel it), and I bet it has a very positive outcome!

 

Agreed. I guess we've lived up to the stereotype of **** Porsche owners.

I think an initial thread with a little less forceful message about avatar content might have been more persuasive, rather than the aggressive tone this took early on. I honestly don't have a problem with someone standing up and saying the girl avatars were a bother to him. Tom, maybe you'll read this. Anyway, I think a plea for consideration might have been a more efficient move. This took on an arguementative and confrontational tone from the initial post. That's how people get their feelings hurt.

I've surfed quite a few automotive forums. Most of them have girlie avatars, and really they're very much like these were.

Kevin, myself, and I suspect really basically everyone here that had a girl in the avatar would have been receptive to a simple plea to reconsider. Instead we've had a full day of e-drama, resulting in a pouty good-bye. How mature is that? You got what you wanted. Kevin, Alok, and I have removed avatars. Ok, UDPride went off the deep end with Bluto, but he'll change it back. (I hope!) So what's the problem? Some people offended you? Did you honestly expect to not have confrontations given the tone you set? If so, that would appear you were a little short-sighted today. Perhaps today just wasn't a good day for you. No sweat, we all have bad days.

I really mean no offense, but this has all been pretty juvenile. That doesn't mean we can't all be friends, but I guess since you've decided to leave for awhile, we'll have to see if you decide to rejoin us after you've had time to cool off.

 

I have not read this whole thread cos its huge so this may ave come up, I have webmarshall on at work which stops the odd virus and means **** cant be viewed etc... I used to be able to enter the rennlist forums, now I cant cos of the content, has something changed with rennlist settings?

 

Let me say a few things that need to be said.

Im one of the few people on here who run their own web site with an active message board. While I dont have even close to 25,000 members, I do have 1,500 or so and when you are talking college sports, theres nothing more contentious that trying to manage a bunch of college sports fans who are a) passionate about their team, and b) think everybody else is the evil empire.

John D's stance is EXACTLY the stance I took when I started the web site 8 years ago. Slowly it has grown and slowly it has become a hot spot for everything under the sun. Ive had to confront every crisis you can think of. I've even had the head basketball coach at Dayton call me at midnight on a weekday from his office telling me it would probably be in his best interest in managing his team if I deleted a thread. Let me assure you, the head coach doesnt call you at midnight unless theres a problem. Ive even had parents of athletes badmouth the coaches and other teammates of their kid in the forums. Ive seen things get fugly occasionally. But Im not going to jump in and delete stuff people dont like to read (as long you arent putting down someone personally or someone in their family). Saying someone stinks at basketball is a lot different than saying they are a crossdressing psychophant. The first falls under fair public criticism. The second falls under a pesonal vindetta.

That said, I think of the 1,500 or so members of my message board, theres a few morons there who I think have a major screw loose. But Im not about to legislate stupidity. Stupidity speaks for itself and defines itself. Ive found that overall if I let my board attempt to police itself, it runs much smoother than I jumping in and just wielding an axe every other day.

Ive run into avatars, threads, comments, and just pure baloney thats tried to be passed off as fact in those 8yrs that -- were it I -- would have avoided. And its no fun when all the other fans from other schools try to ransack your board and tell you your team is nothing but a bunch of wussies (at times that has been fact though).

So I know the ethical dilemma John D faces, although on a smaller scale. The ethical questions remain the same however and I think hes on the same page I am. Its not about what he thinks personally necessarily. Its about what the community wants and what the community is willing to accept. After all, Im nothing without my members, and John -- as hard as he works yet as humble as he is -- would tell you we are the ones that make this web site go round and round. If the point is to be on nothing more than a crusade of decency and personal comfort, my site would be a lot different and Im sure John's would to. But when you run a web site with many people from many backgrounds and many beliefs and many IQs, trying to legislate your way to happiness is simply a lost cause. Part of doing business as a web site owner with a massive public forum is knowing one singular important point: its not about you. It took me a while to figure it out. And while I still have absolute power to do as I please, accepting things I find offensive is just part of the job. Unless things are aggregiously over the top, its in my best interest to step away and let the "invisible hand" find the right path. And 99% of the time it does.

Im honored to be a Renny member and a frequent poster. Im disappointed in that I cannot partake in enough meaningful "car talk" conversations that enrich this place at times. I just dont know much about cars. Im also aware that some of you are the polar opposite of me. But thats okay. Im cool with that and it doesnt mean you arent my bro anymore. And it may mean from time to time someone will offend me. Hasnt happened yet but it one day might. And if it does, so be it. There are far greater tragedies in life. In the end I might not be able to do a thing about it either. And thats ok too. I accept the Renny for the things I like and the things I dont. Just like nobody has to visit my web site if they think Im out in left field, none of us is forced to come here either.

I think John D's eloquent statement of record on his position was put as well as it can be put. The standards really arent about him. They are about us. They are there for us to enjoy, even if from time to time even the Master Jedi himself thinks we're all loco. I respect that as I hope my patrons respect my willingless to let the good -- and bad -- try to speak for itself.

As for the fat chick avatar, Im just ruffling feathers a bit but also in a way to make a point. Sometimes people tend to gloss over so-called glamour model women as acceptable, yet when someone posts a women who is not a size 6, its all of a sudden offensive or grotesque or hideous -- or at the very least more offensive than the size 6. Its obvious womein in bathing suits in avatars has passed the litmus test. What a crude and shallow statement it would be if that meant only supermodels qualified. Because a lot of you arent dating or married to supermodels and it would put an end to those lovely "show me pics of your car and your girl" threads.

This message brought to you by Oppenheimer Funds. The right way to invest.

 

Yes I did know that my avatar would be a little "over the top" that's why I used it. Again, no offense meant, and yes had I been asked by even ONE person to change it I would have. I'm not one of these "this is my view, and if you don't like it then there is something wrong with YOU" people. I think I respect the feelings of others, and if I'm being offensive or rude, tell me, I'll make considerations. This is a public forum, one in which we express what we want. If other people are offensive to use, we can ignor them. That said, there was no ignoring THAT avatar, so it is changed. Boy and to think that people in my high school class thought I'd never acomplish anything!

 

K964:
A man after my own heart. . . I don't have the dogs yet though, but I'll get there. . .

At least you get the point.

Look, it's one thing for people to have differences of opinion but it's quite another to try and force yours onto everyone else. Kudos to John D. for going out of his way to NOT do that - I can only imagine what kind of personal restraint it takes to not get involved in some of the dialog that goes on here.

Tom, your position on this somehow being a "professional" forum or that it should be suitable for a professional environment is kind of silly in light of the fact that you have the tools at your disposal to make it so and choose not to exercise them. It's analogous to having a couple of foul-mouthed construction workers (and this is nothing against construction workers, just a convenient example) working right outside your "professional" office window and having their undesirable language wafting into your work space. You have the option to either (1) close the window and go on about your business or (2) rush outside, jump up and down and scream at the foreman to shut down the job because you need to preserve your image of having a "professional" environment. Isn't it OBVIOUSLY ridiculous to do the latter? Now consider what you're asking here. 'Nuff said. I'm not trying to be a jerk by this, I'm just asking you to consider if maybe - just maybe - you're taking this a little too far. . .

It just saddens me to think that our nation which originally built itself on its ability to think and stand on its own two feet and stick up for itself has instead become a nation of politically-correctness-obsessed pansies that whine and cry whenever something shatters its TV-idealized Disnified pseudo-reality with something it doesn't agree with. Why is it that we are so incapable now of handling situations ourselves that we seek to have other people do our thinking for us (i.e. censoring them "devil words" and "evil craven images") or act like three-year-old children running to mommy (the authorities) demanding that they right every perceived wrong? WHY?!?!?! This call for policing of avatars irks me because it embodies this weak-minded "I have to make sure I don't OFFEND anybody (oh, the horror)" idiocy that our society has become obsessed with.

Look - yes, there's a line that can be crossed and I'm not advocating everyone in here running around shooting their mouths off saying any old thing they want. Nor am I saying that it's okay for someone to display full penetration coitus images in their avatars with a "to hell what everyone else thinks" attitude. For what it's worth, I voted for "R", not "X", so even I am willing to accept some limitations for the "greater good". I AM saying (as John D. did) that for the most part, people know what's appropriate and what's not and for the most part, police themselves pretty well. Why can't you just be happy with that and let the REAL moderators deal with the gross and blatant fanners of the flames?

Finally (and I know this is getting long) I have to state my inherent infuriation with people that casually dismiss the Bill of Rights or our other freedoms as "contextually inappropriate". This "free-speech-doesn't-apply-here-because-it's-PRIVATE" argument gets VERY tiresome after a while, especially when used as a defense against censorship. It smacks of snooty elitism ("I'm above the law"). The Bill of Rights was written as (1) the HIGHEST law in the land (originally intended to even supersede private interests) and (2) to protect the rights of the poor, disadvantaged, etc. against the inherent injustices that the rich and powerful will always try to force upon them. As I said above, I am willing to accept SOME limitations on even my freedoms (using the Bill of Rights as a benchmark - generally a good idea) in the interest of the greater good here, but your willingness to just dismiss the notion of "free speech" as some useless notion truly IS offensive. If we cannot fully extend the liberty of free speech here because this IS a private forum, then shouldn't we at least aspire to meet its spirit and intent as much as possible? We should (and to his credit, John D. does) only exclude the truly wicked, hateful, and immoral words and images that some people feel a need to spread. It's a question of where to draw the line, but when you draw it, please be aware of the blood-won liberty you casually fritter away when you needlessly draw it too high.



Afterthoughts:



I've got news for you - if your co-workers really thought of you as a professional, they wouldn't give a damn what you did, nor would they question what you had displayed on your computer or why. They'd give you the benefit of the doubt.


I also find it odd that you would consider "screwing off" (which let's face it, this is) on Rennlist to somehow be an appropriate work-related activity. I browse the list at work when I've nothing better to do but only because my boss doesn't care. If he did, or I felt it was impacting my productivity, I simply WOULDN'T. Maybe you should do likewise.



Peace, rant over. We're all friends again.

 

To treat the boards like a community or a virtual neighborhood is fine. Many of us were around in the days of Porschefans, Porschephiles and Porschelist. The neighborhood was different in those early days... not better, not worse, just less diverse.

As time has gone by, Rennlist has really taken off and as a result new people are moving into the neighborhood. Some neighbors are very knowledgeable, some are just looking for help. Some just want to sell you stuff, some keep to themselves, and others have an opinion or joke about everything. If you look around at the community you'll see that the logical thing to do at this point is to recognize that this increased diversity calls for increased tolerance if you still want to be a part of the neighborhood. The level of tolerance that we are willing to give before we erupt is different for all of us. People should not start electing themselves to the "neighborhood watch" because they don't like what they're seeing outside of their windows. Just "close the blinds". Nevertheless, I understand where Tom is coming from, but it seems a bit stubborn in my opinion.

Tom is crying out for (some might say demanding) respect from his fellow neighbors. The problem is that respect is an earned commodity, and it is difficult to earn respect over the internet. (John D has it, but he's the landloard!) As a result, Tom's request to have neighbors change their avatars out of respect is not met as openly as he would have hoped. Not that surprising if you really think about it.

Tom, by refusing to turn off your avatars at work, you are coming off like you are no longer fond of the neighborhood. If you don't like the way it's evolving, that's fine. Other neighbors have expressed the same feeling, but they have decided it's not worth leaving over. You've got the right to move away if you feel so inclined. Your level of tolerance has been clearly stated. Sorry to see a neighbor go, but I will "respect you" and your decision to leave.

It seems lessons are always learned the hard way in this neighborhood. I'll chalk it up to another piece of advice to give future neighbors:

1. It's cheaper to buy a 951 than it is to turbocharge an N/A.
2. Turn off avatars while at work.

For now, I love this neighborhood. Bickering and all.

I'll be back, when the week is through,
And I'll have more ideas for you,
And you'll have things you'll want to talk about.
I will too.

 

It seems to me that we're all adults here, except for maybe Chris and Campeck.

This is like a person complaining about their kid accessing **** on the 'net but having their filter turned off because, it's a free world and I shouldn't have to and don't want to be offended anywhere I go and I want to go everywhere....

Tools such as turning off the avatars are made for a reason and one reason is that if they offend you, turn them off. If I had a young child around I would just turn 'em off and not complain. It's a big world with a lot of different people with different taste, sense of humor and creativity. It would be very boring if the Politically Korrect Police get their way every time someone is offended.

There is just too much "make everyone else change , just to accomodate me" going on.

IE, take the reference of God out of the Pledge of Alliegance because I don't want my daughter to say it even though she doesn't have a problem with it.

 

Dont know if this has been mentioned but you can add people to your ignore list one a onesey-twosey basis if turning off avatars is not something you want to do.

Ive got a couple people on mine.

 

Just turn them off you bunch of whiney sissys.

Where I live you can turn on the tv (there is no cable here) and there are topless women and after 8pm there is full light frontal... You go to the gas station and there is nudity on a lot of the magazines (not the ones in plastic, but the ones right up front) and the NORMAL everyday newspaper has at least one naked chick per issue. Just because some of you are sensitive people when it comes to things doesn't mean others should change things to fit your needs. Just turn off you avatars and quit complaining. Jeez, 12 pages of this crap and I just made it worse.

 

My first post to this thread some how didnt make it on.

IMO, I think that it is s bit worse to have pictures of your children on a PUBLIC forum with pictures of your car where the license plate is visible, making your address pretty much public to anyone who cares to find out.

Pics of women in ill fitting clothes, etc etc, thats nothing to worry about, the pedophiles out there are. If you dont want to offend anyone at work with avatars, or are offended by them your self, it is quite simple to turn them off.

I have read this entire thread, and found a few responses to be quite moronic, as I have come to expect from this and most other boards, but I have also found some to be intellignet and thought out responses to a subject which is obviously quite touchy with some of our more reserved members.

Again, thanks for the conversation all of you, a good topic that spread fast.