A canyon run that didn't end to great, yesterday.
05-26-2004, 04:33 PM
#47
Race Car
Tifo, I remember the drive you mentioned, I hope you aren't/weren't the type of cyclist who would ride 3 abreast and keep shooting dirty looks over your shoulder for a half mile or so before giving the traffic room to pass!
05-26-2004, 04:56 PM
#48
Race Director
(sorry for the OT digression here)
Here is the link to that thread:
https://rennlist.com/forums/showthre...hlight=cyclist
I'm not certain about NJ law, but in Ohio (and most states) we do not have to ride single file. 2 abreast is permitted. If they were really 3 abreast for as long as you said, then one of them used poor judgement.
Here is the link to that thread:
https://rennlist.com/forums/showthre...hlight=cyclist
I'm not certain about NJ law, but in Ohio (and most states) we do not have to ride single file. 2 abreast is permitted. If they were really 3 abreast for as long as you said, then one of them used poor judgement.
05-26-2004, 04:59 PM
#49
Nordschleife Master
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 9,558
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
(long post, may be hard to follow)
well guys, I know this is a heated topic. I'd like to write out my view, because I started the thread, and I guess it is appropriate. Before I had the Porsche, I had a civic, and I knew of these roads since day 1 of my drivers license. I drove the living **** out of that civic. I mean 9/10 driving, sometimes even close to 10/10... i learned some amazing car control with the civic, a very basic car to control. I learned the best ways to prevent understeer, I could provoke oversteer if i needed it, and learned how to slide that thing around a turn, getting the rear to come around with a nice jab at the brakes, then power through the slide. It is insane to think that this civic still exists somewhere. i never crashed it, I never totaled it, and I never killed myself. I don't know how it turned out this way, as I was way over the limit of what is, in my eyes now, acceptable for public streets. Another thing is, I mostly went up at night or early in the morning, or on weekdays, during the day. basically, nobody was there. the roads are so much more crowded then they ever were, with cyclists and other enthusiasts. I slowly calmed down, and when I bought the porsche, i went up a few times, slowly, one of those, i powered out of a turn, completely new to rwd, and forced induction, and all that power. rear came out much easier then i expected, and the turn ended right away into a turn in the opposite direction, i manage to control the swing of the tail and was already recovering when suddenly it just came around. Maybe I lifted, maybe it was the reflector in the road (you guys in snowy states don't have those) the rear tire hit right before it spun. either way, no real damage done, warning issued, and received loud and clear. Everytime I went on a run, in my 951, i always took up position in last. and i always took it easy, learning what my car does, and how it reacts to certain inputs. I'd show up a few seconds later then everyone else, and everyone knew that i was learning the car, it was cool, i had no desire to show off or what not.this is how it continued for a while, until i went on a run that consisted of 2 GT2's, 2GT3's, 3 993 TT's and a couple NA 993's. I figured screw this, I'm not driving this one, I'll ride along, in the lead GT2... well, we tore em up real good, amazing fun, but i was a little nervous at how he was going over the limits of what i thought was acceptable on these roads. sure enough, it happened. we had an off, thank god someone put a huge dirt hill in our path of cliff diving, and certain death. (I nearly wet myself when i went to look over the edge. It wasn't a steep hilly cliff like this audi, it pretty much went straight down, and for about 500-700 ft. anywho, the driver lost the rear, due to a small dip in the apex. as the suspension unloaded in the rear after hitting this dip, he powered out, well, all that was enough to totally unsettle the car, as soon as we went a bit sideways, i knew, this time we were going to crash. Weird how it never scared me, i just grabbed onto the oh **** handle on the door in the 996, and onto the seat, next to my thigh. (they were GT3 seats, like the ones in the CGT, so there is a place there to really get a good grip) and waited and watched. It went real slow, i mean, i remember my thought process loosely, it went like this: F*ck... ok, stay as limp as possible, were going to crash. in a gt2, omg and then boom...the car nailed that enbankment at about 70 mph. the dirt just threw the car away from it changing the direction of the car by about 70 degrees. also rotating it. the car was in the air for about 14 meters, yea, i counted. before it met another enbankment where it just stoped where it hit. there was a nice Corsa imprint there after the car was removed. anyway, when the car was in the air, it rotated nearly 90 degrees, confirmed by the damage to the driver side rear fender, when the impact was front passenger corner. the car never rolled, but it sure was an interesting experience. after a few minutes of looking i did find my glasses, on the hill somewhere. since then I've been quite weary of the roads, but still drive them, and attend the runs, i just stay safe, and usually ride along with someone i know drives under the limits. another rule of my own, for myself, is when ANY other car comes up, i slow down, ANY car. I NEVER pass where i cant LEGALLY, and i never tail the car so that it will pull over. i am very respectable of the others on this road. The bicycles, i slow down for, and pass very generously. there is good communication of the other enthusiasts. if they know there is something ahead of you that is a danger to you, they will signal you. motorcycles, bikes and other cars. either by clear hand gestures, or flashing their lights. this helps keep it a little safer as well. still, this is risky business, and in essence is wrong, but i love it. I have plenty to think about. The track is too expansive and too far, where these roads are 10 minutes away, and free... Of course, I like the track even more.
~Eyal
well guys, I know this is a heated topic. I'd like to write out my view, because I started the thread, and I guess it is appropriate. Before I had the Porsche, I had a civic, and I knew of these roads since day 1 of my drivers license. I drove the living **** out of that civic. I mean 9/10 driving, sometimes even close to 10/10... i learned some amazing car control with the civic, a very basic car to control. I learned the best ways to prevent understeer, I could provoke oversteer if i needed it, and learned how to slide that thing around a turn, getting the rear to come around with a nice jab at the brakes, then power through the slide. It is insane to think that this civic still exists somewhere. i never crashed it, I never totaled it, and I never killed myself. I don't know how it turned out this way, as I was way over the limit of what is, in my eyes now, acceptable for public streets. Another thing is, I mostly went up at night or early in the morning, or on weekdays, during the day. basically, nobody was there. the roads are so much more crowded then they ever were, with cyclists and other enthusiasts. I slowly calmed down, and when I bought the porsche, i went up a few times, slowly, one of those, i powered out of a turn, completely new to rwd, and forced induction, and all that power. rear came out much easier then i expected, and the turn ended right away into a turn in the opposite direction, i manage to control the swing of the tail and was already recovering when suddenly it just came around. Maybe I lifted, maybe it was the reflector in the road (you guys in snowy states don't have those) the rear tire hit right before it spun. either way, no real damage done, warning issued, and received loud and clear. Everytime I went on a run, in my 951, i always took up position in last. and i always took it easy, learning what my car does, and how it reacts to certain inputs. I'd show up a few seconds later then everyone else, and everyone knew that i was learning the car, it was cool, i had no desire to show off or what not.this is how it continued for a while, until i went on a run that consisted of 2 GT2's, 2GT3's, 3 993 TT's and a couple NA 993's. I figured screw this, I'm not driving this one, I'll ride along, in the lead GT2... well, we tore em up real good, amazing fun, but i was a little nervous at how he was going over the limits of what i thought was acceptable on these roads. sure enough, it happened. we had an off, thank god someone put a huge dirt hill in our path of cliff diving, and certain death. (I nearly wet myself when i went to look over the edge. It wasn't a steep hilly cliff like this audi, it pretty much went straight down, and for about 500-700 ft. anywho, the driver lost the rear, due to a small dip in the apex. as the suspension unloaded in the rear after hitting this dip, he powered out, well, all that was enough to totally unsettle the car, as soon as we went a bit sideways, i knew, this time we were going to crash. Weird how it never scared me, i just grabbed onto the oh **** handle on the door in the 996, and onto the seat, next to my thigh. (they were GT3 seats, like the ones in the CGT, so there is a place there to really get a good grip) and waited and watched. It went real slow, i mean, i remember my thought process loosely, it went like this: F*ck... ok, stay as limp as possible, were going to crash. in a gt2, omg and then boom...the car nailed that enbankment at about 70 mph. the dirt just threw the car away from it changing the direction of the car by about 70 degrees. also rotating it. the car was in the air for about 14 meters, yea, i counted. before it met another enbankment where it just stoped where it hit. there was a nice Corsa imprint there after the car was removed. anyway, when the car was in the air, it rotated nearly 90 degrees, confirmed by the damage to the driver side rear fender, when the impact was front passenger corner. the car never rolled, but it sure was an interesting experience. after a few minutes of looking i did find my glasses, on the hill somewhere. since then I've been quite weary of the roads, but still drive them, and attend the runs, i just stay safe, and usually ride along with someone i know drives under the limits. another rule of my own, for myself, is when ANY other car comes up, i slow down, ANY car. I NEVER pass where i cant LEGALLY, and i never tail the car so that it will pull over. i am very respectable of the others on this road. The bicycles, i slow down for, and pass very generously. there is good communication of the other enthusiasts. if they know there is something ahead of you that is a danger to you, they will signal you. motorcycles, bikes and other cars. either by clear hand gestures, or flashing their lights. this helps keep it a little safer as well. still, this is risky business, and in essence is wrong, but i love it. I have plenty to think about. The track is too expansive and too far, where these roads are 10 minutes away, and free... Of course, I like the track even more.
~Eyal
05-26-2004, 05:13 PM
#50
Race Car
Originally posted by Eyal 951
The track is too expansive and too far, where these roads are 10 minutes away, and free... Of course, I like the track even more.
~Eyal
The track is too expansive and too far, where these roads are 10 minutes away, and free... Of course, I like the track even more.
~Eyal
autox is $25 or less typically. try that, they have them all over the place. no cliffs near by either.
if you think tracks are too expensive, how expensive is bending your 951 or killing yourself. or god forbid, hurting an innocent bystander?
it's all fun and games until someone gets hurt. i've seen situations like this more than i care to think about. keep yourself and others safe. think...
05-26-2004, 05:18 PM
#51
Nordschleife Master
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 9,558
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by OriginalSterm
that's why i race on the street yo! light to light, i'm crazy fast!
autox is $25 or less typically. try that, they have them all over the place. no cliffs near by either.
if you think tracks are too expensive, how expensive is bending your 951 or killing yourself. or god forbid, hurting an innocent bystander?
it's all fun and games until someone gets hurt. i've seen situations like this more than i care to think about. keep yourself and others safe. think...
that's why i race on the street yo! light to light, i'm crazy fast!
autox is $25 or less typically. try that, they have them all over the place. no cliffs near by either.
if you think tracks are too expensive, how expensive is bending your 951 or killing yourself. or god forbid, hurting an innocent bystander?
it's all fun and games until someone gets hurt. i've seen situations like this more than i care to think about. keep yourself and others safe. think...
anywho, when i have a little money saved up, of course these will be my first priorities...
~Eyal
05-26-2004, 05:23 PM
#52
Race Car
Originally posted by Eyal 951
...I do try and keep MY actions safe. Maybe thats Why I have never crashed while driving...
...I do try and keep MY actions safe. Maybe thats Why I have never crashed while driving...
05-26-2004, 05:32 PM
#53
Nordschleife Master
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 9,558
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by OriginalSterm
Don't just concern yourself with your actions, it's the clown who isn't that causes the problems (typically).
Don't just concern yourself with your actions, it's the clown who isn't that causes the problems (typically).
~Eyal
05-26-2004, 05:37 PM
#54
Nordschleife Master
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 9,558
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
also, to those interested, there is this thread on GT2/GT3 about this incident. info about the drivers condition, and more moral judgment. go take a look.
https://rennlist.com/forums/showthre...hreadid=135659
~Eyal
https://rennlist.com/forums/showthre...hreadid=135659
~Eyal
05-26-2004, 05:45 PM
#56
Nordschleife Master
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 9,558
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
not to mention, non of the wheels or intercoolers are salvageable... i specifically went looking for any parts that were. i think the steering wheel was still good, albeit covered in blood, the front airbags didnt go off.
~Eyal
~Eyal
05-26-2004, 05:47 PM
#57
Pro
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: chicago, IL, in viewing distance of cubs stadium
Posts: 693
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
alright first off i think its only fair to lay of on the "serves him right" attitude. the reason i say this is because where i live there was this incident where everyone thought the guy was drunk (quick version of story goes like this tire marks through a park and then a hole in a wall at a small dealership), when in fact he had a seizure. it wasnt an old guy either. with a million posabilitys as to why he went over you chose he was driving to fast. what if another car came around the corner out of control and he swerved to avoid the car, went off and the other driver just kept on going. i can go on and on.
as far as bikers, i also was huge into biking and i think we dont get enough reespect on the streets. i have had people say that if they saw a biker on the road they would just hit them. i dont think they really would but then again. however i agree 3 wide is too much.
as far as bikers, i also was huge into biking and i think we dont get enough reespect on the streets. i have had people say that if they saw a biker on the road they would just hit them. i dont think they really would but then again. however i agree 3 wide is too much.
05-26-2004, 06:04 PM
#58
Race Director
There are so many things that irritate me about your post Eyal I dont know where to start...
First, Im sick of hearing this 7/10, 9/10, 10/10 crap...drop it, you arent Schuey and I dont care how much car control you think you possess. mAd sKiLLz yO!
Second, I hope you honestly stop and think about what could happen to a innocent family with kids when you or one of your cronies loses it...but I guess its ok because you dont tailgate, pass only when its legal and people signal and flash their beams at you when danger is ahead. <moment of clarity>
"The track is too expansive and too far, where these roads are 10 minutes away, and free..."
Man, I agree its not cheap. But you gotta pay to play. And I wont play until its safe for others, I dont feel like taking out someones 1st born because I wanted to go 9/10 around a corner on a public road...couldnt live with myself. But if you can, go for it big man.
First, Im sick of hearing this 7/10, 9/10, 10/10 crap...drop it, you arent Schuey and I dont care how much car control you think you possess. mAd sKiLLz yO!
Second, I hope you honestly stop and think about what could happen to a innocent family with kids when you or one of your cronies loses it...but I guess its ok because you dont tailgate, pass only when its legal and people signal and flash their beams at you when danger is ahead. <moment of clarity>
"The track is too expansive and too far, where these roads are 10 minutes away, and free..."
Man, I agree its not cheap. But you gotta pay to play. And I wont play until its safe for others, I dont feel like taking out someones 1st born because I wanted to go 9/10 around a corner on a public road...couldnt live with myself. But if you can, go for it big man.
05-26-2004, 06:12 PM
#59
Nordschleife Master
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 9,558
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
well, i'm sorry youy dont like my driving rating scale, I don't plan on droping it cause you don't like it...
as for the mad skillz yo comment, i am the first to say that i have nowhere near the amount of car control in my Porsche, as I should. I DO NOT have good car control in this car. PERIOD. however, i plan to learn it, and i plan to get better and better, and plan to PUSH it at the TRACK, and learn basics like weight transfer, lines, and braking etc on the roads. I play it very safe, i dont put myself into a situation that endangers other people lives, i think you guys over estimate what I do. Yes, I used to be real dangerous. weren't we all at 16-18?
Another thing is, there is a possibility that he blew a tire. this whole thing is very weird, as mike, the audi driver, is usually very conservative in his driving, and often criticizes others about this kind of stuff. I mean he PULLED OVER to let everyone pass! maybe when he pulled over into the dirt and rocks, he may have recieved a punture, he really didnt go much farther then a quarter mile before he went off. and if you look at the scene, it starts to make sence. I geuss we won;t know, for sure, unless he starts remembering stuff.
~Eyal
as for the mad skillz yo comment, i am the first to say that i have nowhere near the amount of car control in my Porsche, as I should. I DO NOT have good car control in this car. PERIOD. however, i plan to learn it, and i plan to get better and better, and plan to PUSH it at the TRACK, and learn basics like weight transfer, lines, and braking etc on the roads. I play it very safe, i dont put myself into a situation that endangers other people lives, i think you guys over estimate what I do. Yes, I used to be real dangerous. weren't we all at 16-18?
Another thing is, there is a possibility that he blew a tire. this whole thing is very weird, as mike, the audi driver, is usually very conservative in his driving, and often criticizes others about this kind of stuff. I mean he PULLED OVER to let everyone pass! maybe when he pulled over into the dirt and rocks, he may have recieved a punture, he really didnt go much farther then a quarter mile before he went off. and if you look at the scene, it starts to make sence. I geuss we won;t know, for sure, unless he starts remembering stuff.
~Eyal
05-26-2004, 06:19 PM
#60
Rennlist Member
Having worked my way through college as a AAA tow driver, I've scraped up lots of messes, many worse and with less-happy endings. Gives you a bit of perspective.... I highly recommend it.
Do I still drive fast? Yes. Do I cross the center line? Just about never. Do I leave myself lots of margin for the unexpected? Yes. I agree, all should be careful, loss of life is no joke.
But lighten up, all... there is a lot of room for fun somewhere between owning a 3-cylinder suzuki and having an all-out GTR car hung out at the limit on a public road. Find that happy medium and have fun. Be prepared to take responsibility for your actions as well.
Do I still drive fast? Yes. Do I cross the center line? Just about never. Do I leave myself lots of margin for the unexpected? Yes. I agree, all should be careful, loss of life is no joke.
But lighten up, all... there is a lot of room for fun somewhere between owning a 3-cylinder suzuki and having an all-out GTR car hung out at the limit on a public road. Find that happy medium and have fun. Be prepared to take responsibility for your actions as well.