Duke

The only bad thing I can see about this forum is the amount of people who think they know everything better than everyone else..

Sure I can agree to some extent the logic behind "learn to drive what you got already" but following that logic to the extreme like some people seem do you can pretty much start advising all people on this forum to sell the Porsche and get a regular car, like the Civic, since I'm sure most people here can't even master a regular car at the absolute limit...

To 944CS, good luck with the upgrades!

pete944

Good post Jeremy.
I have seen the PM in question and it was WAY over the line. There really is no excuse for something like that over a minor disagreement.
While I'm not a business owner I am in sales. I have many customers that I think are stupid or moronic but I would never say that to them, especially in writing.

Z-man

As one who advocates the 'keep it stock' mentality, I disagree with your last statement. I never said, "sell the Porsche and buy an ill-hanlding car."

My point is that the 944 even in stock form is an excellent handling car. If this were a different car forum, I would not be advocating the keep-it-stock mentality. Most of us here, myself included can't drive our cars to even 75% of their potential.

HOWEVER: I know that folks like to upgrade stuff. That's not my bag of shells, but I accept that. But tell me, what is wrong with expressing your opinon about an upgrade that doesn't make sense? Won't that lead to more discussion on what is being done, and eventually a better understanding?

Would it be better for me to just say, "Yeah, that's a great idea -- your car will own the corners with that setup?" (Knowing that his idea will turn his car into an ill-handling vehicle?)

If I decided to put a fart can exhaust on my car, and a mondo wing on the rear, you guys would be all over me! Why? Because that's just not right! In the same way, 'upgrading' a suspension the wrong way is not right either!

Ok, I'll get off my soapbox now,
-Z.

Dave

Actually Z-man, this might be a good place for the Jetta story, there are some strong similarities.

tifosiman

Z,

Point well taken. All I can say is, if I post a question, I would like an answer first, then maybe some additional discussion after that.

It would be like you posting "hey, where can I get a thermostat?", and someone else going into a long explanation about how to remove/install, circlips, etc, and never answering the question that you really needed answered. Maybe you already knew all of that stuff, and it was redundant?

Regards,

Jeremy

adrial

I'm not sure what you're talking about Zoltan? I just got a new wing....its tight man...14 inches high. Yeah I probably should have spent the money on engine parts, but man my car will look cool sitting there. Maybe I'll even roll it down the driveway...yeah...that'd be awesome! All the honeys will be lovin me as I roll down the driveway..

I have actually heard of someone running 350-400# springs up front with a stock rear and the car handling OK...maybe there's something we dont know?
Here's a thought...The spring balance would obviously push it into massive understeer. BUT, the stiffer springs up front would give the front end of the car more grip, which obviously lessens understeer.

Though stiffer is not always better, as a softer sprung car will have more absolute grip than a stiffer sprung car assuming you can dial in enough static camber to get the tire flat under cornering.

RedlineMan

OK;

To all - I apologize for my reaction and for dusting up this thread. Ever have somebody that gets under your skin? That would be you, Jeremy.

Jeremy - That is more like it. A CONSTRUCTIVE discussion. My dislike for your "Rennlist Manner" all started for me when I posted my Roll Bar call on this forum. You can either see that as an entirely shameless commercial plug, or a good opportunity for the List membership, but that is not germane to this discussion.

I remember your additions to that thread as being uncomplimentary as to my bar's design, purpose, and usefulness, and generally... shall I say, confrontational. Perhaps that is simply my perception... or in fact the reality. Perhaps I get tired of every Tom, Dick, and "Jeremy" offering to improve my product with their engineering advice. Words can be dangerous things, eh? The above perception was again the case when you STARTED your reply to 944CS with a thinly veiled poke at my "indirect diatribe" on suspensions.

In fact, I DO have some experience with this stuff, having gone through all of this myself. I DO generally know what works and what doesn't. That is not because I am smarter than anyone else, just perhaps more experienced. Further, I think about it a lot, and have a habit of having faultless logic where it concerns making a car work.
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It seems that we need to define a few things in the strictest technical sense. What we have on our cars (M030 excepted) is a McPherson Strut. The rear is a Shock. A coilover is a strut/shock that some bright guy decided to make adjustable for preload by adding a threaded body so he could put "A Coil Over" it.
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944CS asked about LOWERING SPRINGS. These are stock in configuration and diameter to fit a stock strut, but are generally higher in rate and sometimes physically shorter. The initial part of my answer was aimed DIRECTLY and LITERALLY at his question. "I am not aware of LOWERING SPRINGS in as stiff a rate as you are speaking of." That is 100% accurate and correct.

As I stated subsequently, one man's "diatribe," as you put it, is another man's good advice. I DO indeed have strong opinions on this stuff, and do offer them even if not provoked to do so. That is not because I am a no-it-all or looking for a boost in ego. It is because, having been through these discussions a million times, I cut to the chase. That's what I did, and the advice offered, even without it being asked for, was still right on the money.

Your advice to him took a different tack. A coilover conversion is indeed another means of lowering the car, and is a good alternative and sound advice in and of itself, but it is not TECHNICALLY & DIRECTLY what he asked about. You seem to not understand the distinction here. Your solution is viable, well offered, and considering the spring rate he wants, the only choice, but you saying that MY advice was not DIRECT and yours was is INCORRECT, if we must apparently be exceedingly technical about it.

I have no problem with your suggestion, and made no exception to it whatsoever. You, for reasons unknown to me, took exception to my post and went after ME FIRST, and then a different solution second. Again, I don't know why that is or what I have done to you to cause that reaction in you, but it clearly evident that the reaction was YOURS first.

I do not take well to being maligned in public, especially when I do not know the reason for it, and that is where I drew the line here. I took this private fight off list, and continued on the path of escalation that YOU started. It went from snide remark on your part to sarcastic rebuke on mine to public ridicule by you to private RANT from me. I think it is unfortunate that you saw fit to involve anyone else in this whole mess, and to further bring it back on-List. I do not see that as a mature way of dealing with misunderstandings. Your opinion may vary, but that's the way I see it.

If you want we can simply agree to disagree, and just steer clear of each other. I would prefer that we go back and discuss the issues (regarding roll bars, I gather) that you elude to and straighten them out. I don't really know what you are talking about in that regard.

I just want it over with, as it is most assuredly not in my nature to be combative. That in itself SHOULD suggest to you that you must be at least partially to blame for this whole mess. Like in most cases, there is usually enough to go around.

My e-mail box is open.

RedlineMan

I see that some here seem to have a chip on their shoulders regarding upgrades. There are two groups. One wants to play with their cars as toys and put all kinds of things on them for amusement or individualization or whatever. The other group is, in my opinion, much more purposeful and thoughtful. They want things that have DIRECT & SOLID merit as it pertains to improving some performance aspect of the car. Different strokes.

I personally think that 80% of what 90% of people are doing is pointless. That is my opinion. You can do whatever you want, of course, but to me, if something doesn't DIRECTLY improve some aspect of performance, it is pointless.

Further, there is a smaller group of us yet that feel that direct performance improvements made by people who were not even scratching the surface of what they had already is REALLY pointless. We feel that simply having something for the sake of having it is window dressing. We think, "OK, nice... but let's see what you can do with it!" We think, "Why have it unless you need it?"

It boils down to having things for what is basically amusement or having them for the INTRINSIC VALUE they add to the car's performance. We do indeed get tired of the "rice-i-fication" of our Porsche marque, and feel it is not in keeping with the tradition and spirit of the cars and the brand.

That is my opinion and take on the divide. You may agree or disagree. So be it, but at least you know where "WE" are coming from.

tifosiman

John, you have me confused with some one else. I NEVER stated anything derogatory about your bar in that post that you are talking about. Go back and reread it, then apologize to me.

<EDIT>

Here, I have even given you the link to the thread. Read it, and tell me that you are wrong.

https://rennlist.com/forums/showthre...light=roll+bar

<EDIT>

Rich Sandor

John and Jeremy. please take it off the board.

Duke

You've got a good point there and basically I agree with you. It's great that people share their experiences, that's also somewhat what this board is here for I suppose. But I don't like it when some use a tone in their language that seems patronizing just because the think themselves know better.

And BTW, the same goes for the large amount of people that just have to reply things like "RICE!!!" just because someone wants to add big aluminum wing at the back. Personally I don't like that things either.. but it's not constructive and pretty uninteresting for the rest of the board to shout things like that.

Well let's cheer up everyone, have a happy weekend!

RedlineMan

Jeremy (& All);

MASSIVE HOMER SIMPSON DOH!!!!!!

You are absolutely correct in that I had the wrong man in my mind as someone who had been sarcastic and derogatory in the past. God only knows...

I utterly, completely, totally blew it in that regard, and for that I'll do everything short of kissing your wastegate! Bring me your Chinese Water Torture Roll Bar and I'll exchange it even!!

What a waste of energy, eh? Sometimes I hate the electronic medium. It is far too easy to get caught up in blunders like this. It's so much better in the long run to look someone in the eye and screw up!

End of Diatribe!

Dan Gallagher

I think im starting to regret what i did to my car.... i miss having an interior

Z-man

Ah yes, the Jetta story.

I was instructing a 'newbie / know it all' kid at an autocross. I jumped in the car and we started chatting. His concern was the that car wasn't 'loose' enough. (Note to self - next time someone says this, GET OUT!) His car was a VW Jetta with a super-firm suspension all around. It was naturally also lowered. (No rice effects though -- at least there's something positive here!) Anyway, we get through the first turn - a tight 270 degree arc. No problems. Next up is a 5 or 7 cone slalom. Zoom by the first cone ok. Second one: he gets a little squirrely. Before ya know it, the back end is coming around, and we start a nice sweeping slide towards the outside of the course. I figured the run was blown. No biggie. The kid doesn't brake, and we continue sliding. Ok, the curb's getting closer. Still no braking. What finally stopped us was a plastic garbage dumpster that he somehow managed to hit squarely with the driver's side door. Fortunately for him, the dumpster stopped him from hitting the curb with his wheels. His door skin was crumpled pretty nicely.

Ok, why did this happen? When I got out after the run, I noticed two different wheels front to back. This bozo decided that putting R-compounds up front and regualr street tires in the rear would help his 'drifting abilities.' R-compounds up front + street tires rear + super stiff suspension = unpredictable handling.

And that is the Jetta story. As Redlineman said, if you're gonna upgrade, it needs to be done with BALANCE in mind. More traction on one end must be matched by a change in the other end to continue to achieve some state of balance.

No wonder I'm not a big advocate of stiff suspensions!

-Z-man.

944CS

"2 simple questions. Where and how much?"-exactly
the one thing i don't like is how everyone tries to be the guy who knows more than everyone else. There are so many things i didn't mention about the car.....alignment, sway bars, tires, shocks....but thanks to everyone for caring enough to not want me to turn the car into a civic.....which iT is NOT.... i know what i'm doing with 400lb springs......while i don't have years of experience i know that to go fast you have to go slow first, which i have done.....i'm movin up now thats why i was wondering about the springs