OT: another motorcycle question
02-26-2004, 12:14 PM
#31
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the size of the bike has everything to do with it, how many stories have you heard about people getting on the throttle and then going so fast that they are too scared to stop or give it more throttle. if one is on a bike that is only going 25 then they have a better chance to avoid an accident then if they were going 75. Does a 929 get to 75 faster than a starter 1978 kawasaki, i sure would think so.
come on. I saw a rider shoot a bike out from between his legs he gave it so much gas
A bike with a reasonable power curve and body work that you won't cry over is the best way to start. tell me that a first time rider needs 135 hp at 13,000 rpm and I will guarantee he isn't on that bike for long...unless the guy is nicky hayden's youngest brother who hasn't yet started riding
I am not saying people don't have the skills to ride a 929RR at first but it is going to be a much more positive experience if they start with something reasonable and work up to the 929. Why do all the MSF courses around here teach the same thinking?
however, this applies to people who are looking to ride safe and smart.. People who want to go fast will still not have a license, buy a bike with an extended swingarm and get themselves in trouble either with sheet metal, asphalt or the police
come on. I saw a rider shoot a bike out from between his legs he gave it so much gas
A bike with a reasonable power curve and body work that you won't cry over is the best way to start. tell me that a first time rider needs 135 hp at 13,000 rpm and I will guarantee he isn't on that bike for long...unless the guy is nicky hayden's youngest brother who hasn't yet started riding
I am not saying people don't have the skills to ride a 929RR at first but it is going to be a much more positive experience if they start with something reasonable and work up to the 929. Why do all the MSF courses around here teach the same thinking?
however, this applies to people who are looking to ride safe and smart.. People who want to go fast will still not have a license, buy a bike with an extended swingarm and get themselves in trouble either with sheet metal, asphalt or the police
02-26-2004, 02:46 PM
#32
Nordschleife Master
Originally posted by Legoland951
My brother is a surgeon and they consider motorcycle riders great donors for organs because most riders who die in an accident were young and in shape.
My brother is a surgeon and they consider motorcycle riders great donors for organs because most riders who die in an accident were young and in shape.
Start slow, assume you're invisible and take a race school. Most single vehicle accidents occur when someone panics on a curve and runs off the road. If they'd known the bike's limits they probably could have ridden through.
And watch for cars turning left in front of you.
02-26-2004, 03:12 PM
#33
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First bike? Buy the best $1000 Jap bike you can. Don't pay more 'cause you're gonna crash it. Pay less and it's probably needs some work.
$1000 buys a decent bike.
That Ninja is cheap for a reason, it don't run and you don't know why. Why didn't the seller put it back together? Jap bikes are much more expensive to repair than Harleys as there are few parts suppliers.
Regular maint is about the same for any bike.
Carb kit is about $20 ea for that bike. I just did one last summer. But is that all that is wrong with it???
$1000 buys a decent bike.
That Ninja is cheap for a reason, it don't run and you don't know why. Why didn't the seller put it back together? Jap bikes are much more expensive to repair than Harleys as there are few parts suppliers.
Regular maint is about the same for any bike.
Carb kit is about $20 ea for that bike. I just did one last summer. But is that all that is wrong with it???
02-26-2004, 09:08 PM
#34
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My younger brother and I bought an '82 nighthawk 650 this past winter for $300. We were able to get it running for roughly another $100. Although such a deal isn't common, there are a few deals out there that you just have to keep your eyes open. Like others have said, beginners should avoid sport bikes. I've driven my brother's '86 vfr 700 around a parking lot and I experienced a world of differences between it and the nighthawk (only 50 cc difference mind you). A beginner on a sports bike is just asking for trouble.
02-26-2004, 10:57 PM
#35
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Originally posted by Porsche-O-Phile
Bike insurance is nothing - I'd figure a couple hundred bucks for the year & full coverage, probably under $100 for basic liability.
Bike insurance is nothing - I'd figure a couple hundred bucks for the year & full coverage, probably under $100 for basic liability.
I like motorcycles and appreciate them for their mechanical beauty, but I would be too scared to ride one often. I've seen too much bad stuff in ER's.
An Aside: What is considered to be low/avg/high mileage on a bike?
Good luck,
Jason
02-27-2004, 01:27 PM
#37
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Originally posted by jc22
This is exactly the statement I am trying to understand. From everyone who has experience, why is this?
This is exactly the statement I am trying to understand. From everyone who has experience, why is this?
02-27-2004, 03:34 PM
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Whew.. so much to dig through. Lots of good advice, some opinion (and stuff I don't agree with at that) and some pure BS.
Sorry the deal on the 250 fell through ~ I just bought a '00 that needed work for $800 2 weeks back. $1000 and about 10 hours of my time will see it completely together in as good of shape as you could expect a used bike.. (I'm a factory trained/certified mechanic so that helps me some). I'm 6'4", 260lbs and this 250 has been a BLAST to ride... even with more than 100k miles of 2-wheeled experience, 3 years of roadracing and a bigger bike here for use. You can really ring this thing out and still be somewhat close to the speed limit... follows the saying "It's more fun to drive a slow car fast than to drive a fast car slow".
I know people (my height, about 90lbs less) who use this very bike for LD touring, have over 100k miles on 250s and Still perfer them.... so you may not grow out of the bike. And the difference between the 250 and the 500 is limited to about 100lbs (they make substantially similar HP, the 500 is just heavier.. not worth it IMHO). There's ZERO mechanical change in the ex250 from 1988 till the current models, so there's a TON of availale information and parts ( check out http://www.ninja250.com/home.htm for forums and info... the best resouce I've found yet!)
As for what bike to start on.. I started on an 83 CB1100f. A BIG supersport bike (it was the R1/GSXR1000 of its day), crashed it once into a moron infront of me who failed to signal (something that would never happen now). There were no fairings to really break/replace and it cost me nothing more than a learning lesson. The next bike I bought was an 86 VF500f... and THIS was the bike I really learned to ride on. It was smaller, I could run it harder, handled better... I put better than 30k miles on that bike. I knew nothing about maintenance and it was absolutly bulletproof... because of personal experience starting big then going small, I will ALWAYS push a new rider for a smaller bike... perferable one without bodywork (or without much... I crashed the VF500 a lot while learning). They have all the performance that's needed for real world riding, will hang with any sportbike out there in the corners (given equal riders) and generally cost less across the board. Any dolt can go fast in a straight line.... there's no reason to go bigger and LOTS of reasons not to.
For insurance, it's really a bit of luck but I think the EX250 will be a bit more expenvise than even an EX500. This is strictly because the bodywork is expensive, there's more of it and new riders drop bikes more. This means the insurance companies will see there's a higher payout trend with the bike and raise rates... I may be wrong on this though (haven't insured the 250 yet). I had a '99 1100cc ZRX sportbike that cost $86/year for liability.. switched over to a '91 VFR750 and my rates went to $127/year.. so older, smaller CC and going from unfaired to fully faired made a bit of difference. I'm currently with Dairyland, who cater to motorcycles and newer riders (cheaper rates.. no clue on how they are with claims).. Progressive is the only other comapny that even comes close to the rates and they have very good claims handling.
Onto gear.... the '99 ZRX I mentioned above, at $3800 purchase price, was the ONLY bike I've owned that was worth more than my gear. I have about $2k into my gear... gear that's meant the difference between being sore and riding home and being in pain and going to the hospital. As a new rider, you should have a BRAND NEW helmet (try lots on and leave them on for 15min plus.. you'll find some that absolutly HURT to wear, and some that don't feel like you're wearing anything... then buy that good helmet in a plain White/Black/Red color as they're the cheapest). Over $300 and you're paying for graphics... this is THE most essential piece of gear if you like your face/head/brain. Beyond that and all the gear has equal importance, but should include boots that go over the ankles and have padding in the ankles, pants (either leather or cordura... jeans may do in a pinch, but they're on par with dress pants and only slightly better than bare skin), Jacket and gloves. All these things can be had used (hit up http://www.newenough.com/ or http://www.motorcycleleatherexchange.com/ for 2 excelent used gear stores)... you do get what you pay for with gear as the cheap stuff is cheap for a reason (material, stiching, durability, etc) and do you Really want this stuff coming apart in a crash? Leather tends to be a bit more durable than cordura, weathers time a little better and weathers crashing a little better (may look scraped up, but still very functional). You absolutly want gear with armor ~ be it just padding or hard armor. This is what makes the difference between getting a bruise and getting Really banged up.... crashing means you FALL, and in some cases tumble down the road. Things like shoulders, elbows, hips and knees all like to stick out and take the brunt of the force so make sure they're covered.
The MSF is a great starting tool... but don't take their word for the absolutle end all be all. I'm still untraining my fiance some of the crap they tought (like ALWAYS lut your left foot down when stopping... well, sure, unless there's an oil spot there or you're on a slop and left is downhill... she dropped her bike a few times because of this). All in all it's a great resource (there's a HD beginning riders course too, they teach on Buell Blasts) that I never took advantage of... there are a LOT of riders who've done just fine without it, but I think there'd be more riders out there now if everyone had taken the course.
As for other bikes to look at, I think you'd be golden on any UJM (Universal Jap MC) that has limited fairings. They tend to be upright in seating, a dime a dozen, cheap to insure, easy to work on, etc.... Since you're limited to an $800 budget, look for some of the smaller bikes from the early 80's (go into the 70's and you loose electronic ignition and have to deal with points... a pain in the *** that I completely avoid). What might be the Best class of bikes to start on are dual-purpose bikes. They're just streetable dirtbikes that do Awesome for local riding, crash all day long without tearing things up, cost next to nothing to insure and you can ride in the dirt a little too. They don't do 2-up, and depending on the bike they don't really do longer distance riding very well.. so if those are points you were looking for, this may not be the best solution. Buying cheap means doing your own maintenance work to keep it cheap, and if you do a good job with that you should take next to no loss when you sell the bike to the next beginner rider.
If you have any other questions, please feel free to email/PM me. I'm always available to help folks out with information on motorcycles... from gear shopping to bike shopping, riding techniques to maintenance issues and everything inbetween. Good luck with your hunt!
Sorry the deal on the 250 fell through ~ I just bought a '00 that needed work for $800 2 weeks back. $1000 and about 10 hours of my time will see it completely together in as good of shape as you could expect a used bike.. (I'm a factory trained/certified mechanic so that helps me some). I'm 6'4", 260lbs and this 250 has been a BLAST to ride... even with more than 100k miles of 2-wheeled experience, 3 years of roadracing and a bigger bike here for use. You can really ring this thing out and still be somewhat close to the speed limit... follows the saying "It's more fun to drive a slow car fast than to drive a fast car slow".
I know people (my height, about 90lbs less) who use this very bike for LD touring, have over 100k miles on 250s and Still perfer them.... so you may not grow out of the bike. And the difference between the 250 and the 500 is limited to about 100lbs (they make substantially similar HP, the 500 is just heavier.. not worth it IMHO). There's ZERO mechanical change in the ex250 from 1988 till the current models, so there's a TON of availale information and parts ( check out http://www.ninja250.com/home.htm for forums and info... the best resouce I've found yet!)As for what bike to start on.. I started on an 83 CB1100f. A BIG supersport bike (it was the R1/GSXR1000 of its day), crashed it once into a moron infront of me who failed to signal (something that would never happen now). There were no fairings to really break/replace and it cost me nothing more than a learning lesson. The next bike I bought was an 86 VF500f... and THIS was the bike I really learned to ride on. It was smaller, I could run it harder, handled better... I put better than 30k miles on that bike. I knew nothing about maintenance and it was absolutly bulletproof... because of personal experience starting big then going small, I will ALWAYS push a new rider for a smaller bike... perferable one without bodywork (or without much... I crashed the VF500 a lot while learning). They have all the performance that's needed for real world riding, will hang with any sportbike out there in the corners (given equal riders) and generally cost less across the board. Any dolt can go fast in a straight line.... there's no reason to go bigger and LOTS of reasons not to.
For insurance, it's really a bit of luck but I think the EX250 will be a bit more expenvise than even an EX500. This is strictly because the bodywork is expensive, there's more of it and new riders drop bikes more. This means the insurance companies will see there's a higher payout trend with the bike and raise rates... I may be wrong on this though (haven't insured the 250 yet). I had a '99 1100cc ZRX sportbike that cost $86/year for liability.. switched over to a '91 VFR750 and my rates went to $127/year.. so older, smaller CC and going from unfaired to fully faired made a bit of difference. I'm currently with Dairyland, who cater to motorcycles and newer riders (cheaper rates.. no clue on how they are with claims).. Progressive is the only other comapny that even comes close to the rates and they have very good claims handling.
Onto gear.... the '99 ZRX I mentioned above, at $3800 purchase price, was the ONLY bike I've owned that was worth more than my gear. I have about $2k into my gear... gear that's meant the difference between being sore and riding home and being in pain and going to the hospital. As a new rider, you should have a BRAND NEW helmet (try lots on and leave them on for 15min plus.. you'll find some that absolutly HURT to wear, and some that don't feel like you're wearing anything... then buy that good helmet in a plain White/Black/Red color as they're the cheapest). Over $300 and you're paying for graphics... this is THE most essential piece of gear if you like your face/head/brain. Beyond that and all the gear has equal importance, but should include boots that go over the ankles and have padding in the ankles, pants (either leather or cordura... jeans may do in a pinch, but they're on par with dress pants and only slightly better than bare skin), Jacket and gloves. All these things can be had used (hit up http://www.newenough.com/ or http://www.motorcycleleatherexchange.com/ for 2 excelent used gear stores)... you do get what you pay for with gear as the cheap stuff is cheap for a reason (material, stiching, durability, etc) and do you Really want this stuff coming apart in a crash? Leather tends to be a bit more durable than cordura, weathers time a little better and weathers crashing a little better (may look scraped up, but still very functional). You absolutly want gear with armor ~ be it just padding or hard armor. This is what makes the difference between getting a bruise and getting Really banged up.... crashing means you FALL, and in some cases tumble down the road. Things like shoulders, elbows, hips and knees all like to stick out and take the brunt of the force so make sure they're covered.
The MSF is a great starting tool... but don't take their word for the absolutle end all be all. I'm still untraining my fiance some of the crap they tought (like ALWAYS lut your left foot down when stopping... well, sure, unless there's an oil spot there or you're on a slop and left is downhill... she dropped her bike a few times because of this). All in all it's a great resource (there's a HD beginning riders course too, they teach on Buell Blasts) that I never took advantage of... there are a LOT of riders who've done just fine without it, but I think there'd be more riders out there now if everyone had taken the course.
As for other bikes to look at, I think you'd be golden on any UJM (Universal Jap MC) that has limited fairings. They tend to be upright in seating, a dime a dozen, cheap to insure, easy to work on, etc.... Since you're limited to an $800 budget, look for some of the smaller bikes from the early 80's (go into the 70's and you loose electronic ignition and have to deal with points... a pain in the *** that I completely avoid). What might be the Best class of bikes to start on are dual-purpose bikes. They're just streetable dirtbikes that do Awesome for local riding, crash all day long without tearing things up, cost next to nothing to insure and you can ride in the dirt a little too. They don't do 2-up, and depending on the bike they don't really do longer distance riding very well.. so if those are points you were looking for, this may not be the best solution. Buying cheap means doing your own maintenance work to keep it cheap, and if you do a good job with that you should take next to no loss when you sell the bike to the next beginner rider.
If you have any other questions, please feel free to email/PM me. I'm always available to help folks out with information on motorcycles... from gear shopping to bike shopping, riding techniques to maintenance issues and everything inbetween. Good luck with your hunt!
02-27-2004, 03:45 PM
#39
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Originally posted by jason952
An Aside: What is considered to be low/avg/high mileage on a bike?
Jason
An Aside: What is considered to be low/avg/high mileage on a bike?
Jason
For the larger sportbike = bad beginner bike. With something 'small' and eay to ride, like a Honda CBR600, you're looking at 100 rear wheel HP to a 500lb bike.. 700lb with rider. That's a LOT of HP to get you going quite fast without realizing it (they are sneaky fast).... then if you need to turn or stop, and you don't have the experience to do so, you either crash or luck out and navigate the obstical. The tires only have so much road-holding they can give and the frotn brakes can easily overwhelm that... it's also entirely possible to flip a motorcycle by the front brakes (a newbie probably wouldn't be able to.. they'd just lock the front, wash out and crash). I'd equate it with giving a new driver a Viper.... Really fast, capable machine in the right hands, DAMN expensive to repair when crashed. You wouldn't put a new driver in that kind of car even if it was afordable just like you shouldn't put a new rider on a similar bike.
02-27-2004, 03:49 PM
#40
See I told you Brian would have good advice :>)
JC - you have no clue how heavy a bike is when it is on the ground. You have to hold the brake lever to pick it up so it doesnt move and when you get it up you have to balance it. Further, when it is laying on your broken leg you will be pinned and it will feel kind of like a steel girder, i.e. you arent going to move the bike.
New riders on sport bikes dont know the power, the braking ability or the reaction of the bike, everything happens faster. If you go WOT from poor hand positioning on an EX250 you might hit 5 mph before you caught it, do the same on a 929RR and you will launch the bike forward, you off the back end and the result will not be pretty.
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JC - you have no clue how heavy a bike is when it is on the ground. You have to hold the brake lever to pick it up so it doesnt move and when you get it up you have to balance it. Further, when it is laying on your broken leg you will be pinned and it will feel kind of like a steel girder, i.e. you arent going to move the bike.
New riders on sport bikes dont know the power, the braking ability or the reaction of the bike, everything happens faster. If you go WOT from poor hand positioning on an EX250 you might hit 5 mph before you caught it, do the same on a 929RR and you will launch the bike forward, you off the back end and the result will not be pretty.
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02-27-2004, 06:18 PM
#42
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The right person can start on any bike and ride without accidents.... I've yet to meet one of those people who started on a sportbike (and I've only met a handfull that started on Any motorcycle that didn't drop the bike/crash within the first season.. I've met a lot of BSers who make the claim though). The F2/F3 is a very easy to ride, forgiving bike with lots of spares/aftermarket available for it. Find one for under $3k (f3) or $2k (f2), in complete and fairly good condition and you should be sitting pretty. Problem with those bikes are that they've all been so badly abused and are often tweaked when shopping in that price range.
It's hard for a new rider to do this, but you need to buy the bike that fits your riding style. If you're into corners and live close to good ones, then a small/lightweight but good handling bike makes the most sense. If you're going to be commuting/putting arround town, then something that's more maintenance free, has a comfortable riding position and the availablility of a rack to carry stuff might be the best choice. Looking to do longer distances (commuting between towns, or just getting out on the road ~ maybe 2-up riding) then a little bigger bike that can soak up the bumps and has better wind protection would be a good idea. Looking to do some local traveling, but toss in some dirt.. then a DP bike would be best. There are a lot of bikes that can/do satasfy a whole host of likes... you compromise a little on all. My VFR is an example - it's an Awesome bike for just about any on-road riding you might want to do. It's more than capable in the corners, can do 2-up, fully loaded for days on end, and scoot on down the interstate. You can put a rack on the back for local errends, is has great weather protection and it's stylish on top of all that.
Because it's so hard for a new rider to know what they want to do, and the whole dropping/money issue, buting a cheapish UJM for the first season or two really is the best way to go. There's a great chance that no money will be lost on the bike from when you buy till when you sell, they can do anything you want and it gives you a good opportunity to identify the aspects you like/use most.
NO, I'm not wordy and opinionated on this topic... heh.
It's hard for a new rider to do this, but you need to buy the bike that fits your riding style. If you're into corners and live close to good ones, then a small/lightweight but good handling bike makes the most sense. If you're going to be commuting/putting arround town, then something that's more maintenance free, has a comfortable riding position and the availablility of a rack to carry stuff might be the best choice. Looking to do longer distances (commuting between towns, or just getting out on the road ~ maybe 2-up riding) then a little bigger bike that can soak up the bumps and has better wind protection would be a good idea. Looking to do some local traveling, but toss in some dirt.. then a DP bike would be best. There are a lot of bikes that can/do satasfy a whole host of likes... you compromise a little on all. My VFR is an example - it's an Awesome bike for just about any on-road riding you might want to do. It's more than capable in the corners, can do 2-up, fully loaded for days on end, and scoot on down the interstate. You can put a rack on the back for local errends, is has great weather protection and it's stylish on top of all that.
Because it's so hard for a new rider to know what they want to do, and the whole dropping/money issue, buting a cheapish UJM for the first season or two really is the best way to go. There's a great chance that no money will be lost on the bike from when you buy till when you sell, they can do anything you want and it gives you a good opportunity to identify the aspects you like/use most.
NO, I'm not wordy and opinionated on this topic... heh.
02-27-2004, 08:34 PM
#43
I'm coming in late on this discussion as I am in the process of selling some of my bikes and paying for my 944 spec car. I think the advice given here for the most part has been great. Don't let all of the crash talk freak you out too much....it's really simple, just be smart.
I sold my sv650 (another great starter bike) to a young kid who had a father that rode and wanted to get him into it. The one thing that really struck me was how much RESPECT he had for the bike. I love seeing young riders, but I hate all of the idiots that just have to start out on a big bike. Egos are writing checks that an 18 year old with no experience just can't cash. It is dangerous to ride in LA (and anywhere else for that matter) not only because of the traffic, but because of the negative actions many so called MOTORCYCLISTS have inflicted on the general public.
I have been riding for 27 years and until I moved to LA never realized how many A-hole cyclists there are. I like to go fast, don't get me wrong, but to see a guy standing on his seat at 45mph on PCH while his buddies are doing wheelies at 65-80mph's on a Saturday afternoon pisses me off.
I'll get off my soapbox, but just be smart. There are a ton of great starter bikes and you don't HAVE to move up. I actually went backwards from Harley's and a V-max to a sv650, fzr600 and even a little Derbi gpr50 and still have a great time.
I sold my sv650 (another great starter bike) to a young kid who had a father that rode and wanted to get him into it. The one thing that really struck me was how much RESPECT he had for the bike. I love seeing young riders, but I hate all of the idiots that just have to start out on a big bike. Egos are writing checks that an 18 year old with no experience just can't cash. It is dangerous to ride in LA (and anywhere else for that matter) not only because of the traffic, but because of the negative actions many so called MOTORCYCLISTS have inflicted on the general public.
I have been riding for 27 years and until I moved to LA never realized how many A-hole cyclists there are. I like to go fast, don't get me wrong, but to see a guy standing on his seat at 45mph on PCH while his buddies are doing wheelies at 65-80mph's on a Saturday afternoon pisses me off.
I'll get off my soapbox, but just be smart. There are a ton of great starter bikes and you don't HAVE to move up. I actually went backwards from Harley's and a V-max to a sv650, fzr600 and even a little Derbi gpr50 and still have a great time.
02-27-2004, 08:43 PM
#44
What are you going to ask for your FZR? I am trying to move mine as well.
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